New ToS gives hope for official DPS meters?

[seraseth]

On the one hand, I completely agree that parsers are an important if not necessary tool for savage raiding. But I see two problems with introducing them into the game.

1) The trickle down. Everything that's done in end game trickles down to the rest of the game, through EX trials, 24 mans, and all the way down to basic leveling dungeons, even when it's absolutely unnecessary. It happened with tanks *have* to wear all str accessories, it happens with tanks should *never* use their tank stance, leading to tanks in sub 50 leveling dungeons never using it and mobs going everywhere, because that's what everyone says the way to play is.

2) Percentages. Say only 5% of people using a parser will ever be a dick to someone about it. 5% of players who currently know where/how to get and setup parsers and know how to use and read them and are willing to go outside of the game to get them, despite it being technically a tos violation, is a much much smaller amount than 5% of every single player in ffxiv. More people using it, more chance of running into one of those dicks.


Now I'm not worried that the current people who parsers will be dicks about it. The people who use it now are likely for the most part to be players who do end game content and know how to properly read a parser, what all the different information means, how to analyze it and use it to improve their, and their static's performance. It's the random tom, dick or harry player that only see's parser = dps, bigger number = better and has no idea any of the nuances of it, or where it should be applied (see point 1). And if you think I'm underestimating the playerbase's ability to use parsers properly, what about the complaints about players that cant seem to figure out that some abilities should be used in order(combo)?

If parsers are right there, in game, available to everyone, they will be used in all content, all the way down to sastasha. People will assume SE put them in, so they have to be important and focus on them. People will use them, and they will judge others, and how they respond beyond that depends on the person, but I don't see a rosy future.

I do agree that there are some players who currently either can't(ps4) or won't(tos violation) use parsers but would like to have them for their own personal growth or the content they do. But, I think that's a waaaay smaller group of players than those who simply have no need to use a parser. And yes, it sucks for them, but I think keeping parsers out of game, and silently allowing 3rd party ones, is far better for the game and playerbase. I am absolutely for raiders to use the outside tool, and would be against any crackdown against it, but I don't think it belongs built into ff14.

[LeonTrifang]

But what is a parser?

[Lubu_Mykono]

basically a damage calculator for your party.
They should just let addons in the game it could fix all these problems...

[KaivaC]

I insulted no one. I named no names, nor would I ever do so. I never used the term elitist, and if I intended to call people that I would have simply done so. All I did was take the responses I was given and come to a conclusion. If that conclusion isn't true for you then I'm glad, but can you honestly say it isn't true for others because this thread makes it seem as though it is.

You ask if it's elitist to accept at least average play in Savage, and on the surface I would say no, but who defines what average play is, and is average play really what most Savage parsers are looking for

Quite honestly, if somebody is playing on a high-dps job such as SAM or BLM, and they are being completely outdamaged by a WAR who is in tank stance and holding the boss, there is a massive problem right now. That is below-average. That is an example.

The problem with what you've been saying, and what has constantly been argued in the past, is that people assume that a few bad apples is indicative of the raider/pro-parser scene as a whole, and that couldn't be further from the truth. Most players in Savage want you to be able to pull your own weight. That doesn't always necessarily mean that you have to be a green DPS or higher (unless you are hitting enrage on a constant level, in which case, that is an issue). There are plenty of below-average players who are getting through Alphascape Savage just fine. Yes, people have been kicked solely based on their DPS. But guess what, there have also been people kicked for not doing mechanics correctly. Should players not be allowed to kick them, either?

Before you and others even have continue this argument, you should gain a better understanding of how FFLOGs actually works. You can't blame a tool for a few bad apples that are in the PF.

[linay]

They should just let addons in the game it could fix all these problems...

No, thanks. I want them to actually put features in game and not rely on third party and have users have to manage addons, case in point being WoW and lack of built-in map coordinates.

[Penthea]

They should just let addons in the game it could fix all these problems...

This won't help. FFXIV is a cross-platform game. Add-ons that work on pc won't work on ps4 and vice versa. Furthermore Sony would have to approve the use of third-party add-ons and that's not likely to ever happen.

No, thanks. I want them to actually put features in game and not rely on third party and have users have to manage addons, case in point being WoW and lack of built-in map coordinates.

Blizzard are incredibly lazy when it comes to updating their ui because they just rely on third party developers to do it for them for free. For a very long time it's been at the point in which anyone who takes the game remotely seriously needs to use add-ons. A lot of basic stuff we take for granted in FFXIV's ui is missing from WoW. While the idea of add-ons looks good on paper, the fact is they can be very volatile. Because their quality isn't regulated they are prone to being very buggy to the point of affecting game performance for yourself and in some cases even other players.

If SE ever officially allow the use of parsers and tools like FFLogs, I would prefer them to be developed by SE themselves. I really do not miss the hassle of dealing with third party add-ons. I don't miss patch-day messing up my add-ons. I don't miss finding out a new update for an add-on has made another one decide to no longer work. I don't miss raids getting delayed because someone's add-ons are bugged. I love logging in and not even thinking about my ui because everything just works.

A parser / DPS meter can't hurt anybody, it is neutral and only shows data. All that can happen is "muh feelingz" if s/o mishandles it.
Well, to be frank: grow a thicker skin. We are talking about a video game, and if your performance is holding the group back, you deserve to get called out for it.

I don't know why you're telling me this. I agreed with you when you said people are the problem, not parsers. I even said that before you started posting in this thread. Unless you happen to think the mere act of not being a huge fan of parsers means I must be too sensitive. Well I'll repeat myself. I'm fine with parsers. I'm not fine with handing them to any idiot. But we can't remove idiots so...yea. Or maybe you're just saying this generally. Hard to tell.

I played WoW for a decade and I think I got dissed due to parsers maybe 3 times. Why? Because I don't play group content half AFK. Pull decent numbers and you won't have any problems.

Either you have weird luck or I have. I can't begin to count the amount of needless crap I saw because of parsers. From people being too harsh in low lvl content to raid team drama starting because of things like snide remarks being tossed at lesser geared players who obviously would do less dps, and players getting into arguments because someone who is supposedly lesser skilled got gear instead of them. And this was across multiple raid teams.

On a personal level I escaped most parser drama because I spent most of my time healing, and I was a pretty decent dps when I did moonlight as one. I very rarely had it directed at me, and when I did it was for stupid stuff like low lvl mobs dying too fast for my dots to do enough dps, which somehow meant I was a bad player. When I did get involved it was usually to tell someone to shut up as it was often completely needless criticism.

However just because I experienced most parser drama from afar didn't mean I was okay with it. I didn't enjoy being an audience to often needless arguments. I didn't enjoy the delays from these arguments.

The funny thing is, despite what many may think of me based on what I have said so far, I won't be affected much if the game got an official parser. I rarely pug ex and savage and when my team does it's two players at most. I have a team full of wonderful easy-going people who do pull their weight and are very understanding of others if they have a bad day or are playing a class with lower dps potential. As for casual content I often do it with fc mates, and I'm a decent enough player with a lot of mmo experience so I'm not likely to be a target unless someone is really searching for something to scrutinise.

But I know not everyone is in the same position that I am. Not everyone's raid team has players with the same mind-set as mine. Others are even more patient, but others are significantly less. Not everyone has a fc full of people they trust who are willing to do content with them even if they're learning a class. Not everyone is a very experienced mmo player who can pick up things quickly because it's very familiar.

When I argue against parsers I'm thinking of players who haven't yet found like-minded people to play with when they're learning a class or new content, who are new to mmorpgs so they may pick up things slower and make some mistakes, who haven't yet had the chance to get better ilvl gear and are afraid to endure the grumblings of the far better geared players the roulette matched them with.

The sad truth is these people are ripe for others to abuse with parse results, and the players who will dish out this abuse already exist. But they're mostly quiet now because most don't use parsers. Right now, generally only people who are remotely interested in ex and savage will bother getting one, and even then many can't because they're ps4 players. But if the game gets its own one then everyone will have automatic access to them. Including the tryhards who elevate themselves by putting others down.

I'm not worried about raiders giving people abuse over parsers. Sure some raiders think their progress gives them the right to act high and mighty, but the real problem when it comes to parsers are the tryhards. There is no specific skill level for them, they're everywhere. Some have impressive savage progress, and others think knowing the meta makes them a raider. They can't let their performance speak for itself, so if they can find a way to put someone else down, then they will. Often no matter how silly the criticism is. Someone with my experience can brush it off or refute it quickly, but a less confident, less knowledgeable or newer player could genuinely take it to heart and begin to believe they're as bad as they were told. The worst part about tryhards? They can fool people into thinking this is how raiders act, and it breeds more of them. Some people figure this out and grow out of it. Others don't.

All these massive walls (omfg) said, I do think SE need to give us more than the Stone Sea Sky dummies. At the end of a dungeon I'd like to see players be given a rating, only they can see, of their dps. The rating would not be based on how they performed compared to other players, but would instead be based on the dps they did with they gear they have equipped. This would let them know if their damage output is appropriate for the gear they're wearing. And of course the rating would show the same details a parser would, but just for one player. I think this would be a good middle ground.