New ToS gives hope for official DPS meters?

[Seddrinth]

The feeling I'm getting from those who are pro-parser is that people want their accomplishments in game (accomplishments I do laud by the way) to give them something beyond gear, vanity items, titles, and achievements. What I feel like people really want for their trouble is authority over other players. They want a hierarchy, obviously with themselves at the head of it, and an easy means for those who aren't in their caste to be easily cast aside. Not to say that people can't ever move up, but it just won't be on their watch or on their valuable time. They can do that on someone else's time, assuming everyone else doesn't take the same tack of course. Self-improvement seems to be more of an excuse or a secondary benefit than the real reason behind it all, especially considering the public disclosure of data.
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Could not be further from the truth. And this is the perfect example of the type of insecurity and thin skin that will prevent many players from having a tool they want to improve their game play. If you've been around people who are working very hard to try to clear content, you'll see they use fflogs to figure out when to use raid dps buffs, healing cool downs, tank cds, and to learn how to improve their own performance to help get over that 1%-2% wipe. They look at logs of really good players and compare to their own logs to see what they are doing differently and what they are not doing. They look for mistakes so they won't repeat them- did they not get collective buff when they were supposed to? Were they out of range?

Just as it's wrong to use parsers to harass other people, it's also wrong to use your own uninformed stereotype to misrepresent the "pro-parsers" group.

[Zer0]

Could not be further from the truth. And this is the perfect example of the type of insecurity and thin skin that will prevent many players from having a tool they want to improve their game play. If you've been around people who are working very hard to try to clear content, you'll see they use fflogs to figure out when to use raid dps buffs, healing cool downs, tank cds, and to learn how to improve their own performance to help get over that 1%-2% wipe. They look at logs of really good players and compare to their own logs to see what they are doing differently and what they are not doing. They look for mistakes so they won't repeat them- did they not get collective buff when they were supposed to? Were they out of range?

Just as it's wrong to use parsers to harass other people, it's also wrong to use your own uninformed stereotype to misrepresent the "pro-parsers" group.

The thing is, if you're not doing bleeding edge content in a static group parsers are 100% worthless. Speaking of which, parsers are allowed in those instances.

The issue with parsers is when they're in not end game content in pugs and not statics. It ends up causing harassment to those that aren't good. They're not in end-game content, they know they can't do them. A lot of people just can't keep up with those max dps rotations and make mistakes. A lot of people will forgo those rotations because they can't multitask the actual fight and do them.

Not everyone is capable, or willing to do that sort of work that parsers exist for. So it's best to keep them to the content they're designed for.

Those "pro parsers" that aren't doing end game content are usually toxic try hards.

[Seddrinth]

The thing is, if you're not doing bleeding edge content in a static group parsers are 100% worthless. Speaking of which, parsers are allowed in those instances.

The issue with parsers is when they're in not end game content in pugs and not statics. It ends up causing harassment to those that aren't good. They're not in end-game content, they know they can't do them. A lot of people just can't keep up with those max dps rotations and make mistakes. A lot of people will forgo those rotations because they can't multitask the actual fight and do them.

Not everyone is capable, or willing to do that sort of work that parsers exist for. So it's best to keep them to the content they're designed for.

Those "pro parsers" that aren't doing end game content are usually toxic try hards.

There are players taking a break from savage raiding who still like to get feedback on their own performance, even if it's just a 24 man, ex primal, or normal mode raids. You can also do an official parser that only parses you and not others in your group. Toxicity is not limited to pro parsers. I've seen more toxicity from players who are not in the pro parsers group. If someone just politely asks them a question or offers an advice they become toxic and start name calling. I got into an expert dungeon, joined a group in progress while waiting for a tank. So while we were waiting I went to pee and by the time I got back the other 2 players were so offended that I hadn't responded to what they were saying and were already name calling me things like elitist raider boy, etc.

[splinter1545]

The thing is, if you're not doing bleeding edge content in a static group parsers are 100% worthless. Speaking of which, parsers are allowed in those instances.

The issue with parsers is when they're in not end game content in pugs and not statics. It ends up causing harassment to those that aren't good. They're not in end-game content, they know they can't do them. A lot of people just can't keep up with those max dps rotations and make mistakes. A lot of people will forgo those rotations because they can't multitask the actual fight and do them.

Not everyone is capable, or willing to do that sort of work that parsers exist for. So it's best to keep them to the content they're designed for.

Those "pro parsers" that aren't doing end game content are usually toxic try hards.

Parses can be used to tell you if a party buffs is up as well, with a trigger. Not really an issue in dungeons, but in 24 mans it really helps as there is too much going on for me to personally keep track of every buff for my BRD DoTs. Parses just aren't a measurement of DPS. They have a lot of other uses as well.

Regardless, toxic players will always be toxic whether they have a parse or not. Having a parser doesn't change that fact.

[AleXwern]

The only reason I'm against parsers is that in every other game it's been used I've been kicked in non-relevant content for low dps. As in leveling dungeons, or other non-high-end content.

The current state of parsers is quite fine. It's used basically in only the content it's relevant in, high-end content. And used almost exclusively by static parties. My opinion is that if you're not in a static party working on high-end content parsers don't need to be used at all.

The last thing I want is try hards kicking tanks in MSQ because of "low dps" when the role they're specifically in doesn't rely on damage in all but high-end content. Same applies to healers, you can say what you will and use that stupid level 10 Conj quest as "proof" but their role doesn't require any damage output at all in group based content outside the high-end EX and Savage content. As all but those content regular dps roles alone will provide sufficient damage to meet requirements.

I mean, dungeons don't have dps checks to begin with so naturally even minimalist damage output is "enough". But why stop there? Why just afk around as healer and not help contribute and help clear it faster? I really, really doubt you are pressing Cures on GCD in a manner that you actually need to do so.
It's the question of uptime. DPS and tanks are pressing buttons 24/7, why should healers be allowed to not do that?

[Camiie]

If that is what you think, then you have completely missed any and every point made thus far. Authority over players? See, now at this point, you are starting to portray pro-parsers as elitists, which is somehow even more insulting than what you have been saying so far. Has nothing with do with authority. Is it seriously that elitist to expect at least average play in a Savage run, where you do need to actually pull your weight? How are you going to apologize, and then go right back to insulting people, eh?

I insulted no one. I named no names, nor would I ever do so. I never used the term elitist, and if I intended to call people that I would have simply done so. All I did was take the responses I was given and come to a conclusion. If that conclusion isn't true for you then I'm glad, but can you honestly say it isn't true for others because this thread makes it seem as though it is.

You ask if it's elitist to accept at least average play in Savage, and on the surface I would say no, but who defines what average play is, and is average play really what most Savage parsers are looking for?

Just as it's wrong to use parsers to harass other people, it's also wrong to use your own uninformed stereotype to misrepresent the "pro-parsers" group.

No one wants me to be wrong about all this more than I do. If I am, then wonderful, but if you think I'm new to MMOs and haven't heard a whole lot of justifications for the use of third party tools then you may be assuming things about me as well. My skepticism is not unfounded in my opinion. I may not be an elite player here, but I have been around the block before.

[Mikey_R]

If all people are worried about is DPS tracking in anything other than EX trials, Savage and Ultimate, then I'm sure there is a compromise to be had, have 2 different versions of the parser.

The first ONLY tracks YOUR OWN DPS. This information is not obtainable by anyone else in the party at all, so unless they ask, they won't know. This can be available in all content.

The second will ONLY apply to EX trials (all/current), Savage raids and Ultimate fights. This will track everyone in the party and is available to see by everyone in the party.

The reasoning behind adding it in EX trials, Savage and Ultimate is that is where the majority of fight DPS checks are, infact, everything listed has a hard enrage which requires a certain minimum party DPS to clear. It would not be fair if that one person was dragging the whole team down just because their DPS is bad. To counter any point that says you should help someone improve, my answer to that is, if you are doing an EX trial, Savage or Ultimate, you should know your job, you should know how to do the damage required. This is content for people who know what they are doing after all and you should be focusing on fight mechanics rather than the slacker.

If something like this is added by SE, then it can act just as any other HUD element, with the ability to hide it if you don't care, or have an option to turn it off (though it won't stop people seeing it in EX trials, savage and ultimate).

That is something that can be proposed, but I'm assuming someone is going to have an objection to it somewhere.

[Ilan]

The thing is, if you're not doing bleeding edge content in a static group parsers are 100% worthless. Speaking of which, parsers are allowed in those instances.

The issue with parsers is when they're in not end game content in pugs and not statics. It ends up causing harassment to those that aren't good. They're not in end-game content, they know they can't do them. A lot of people just can't keep up with those max dps rotations and make mistakes. A lot of people will forgo those rotations because they can't multitask the actual fight and do them.

Not everyone is capable, or willing to do that sort of work that parsers exist for. So it's best to keep them to the content they're designed for.

Those "pro parsers" that aren't doing end game content are usually toxic try hards.

Toxic try hards hm? I'm not raiding anymore and i'm completly pro parser. Does it make me toxic all of the sudden that i still try to improve just because i'm not raiding anymore?

The ones that are usualy toxic are the ones that don't use a parser and are completly against them and call everyone out as toxic elitist who is pro parser. Oh and not to forget the players who want to tell you that you don't do any dps because you are low in aggro when your parser tells the exact opposite.

[Granyala]

This is an awful example because there is regulation on the purchase of these things.
In most countries you can't buy a chainsaw unless you're an adult.

Since you have to be above a certain age to be able to play FF-XIV, that is hardly relevant.
Also, chainsaws cause real, physical harm if mishandled to the point of being life threatening.
Being 18+ as the only barrier to owning one is very low indeed, which is why I chose the example.

A parser / DPS meter can't hurt anybody, it is neutral and only shows data. All that can happen is "muh feelingz" if s/o mishandles it.
Well, to be frank: grow a thicker skin. We are talking about a video game, and if your performance is holding the group back, you deserve to get called out for it.

I played WoW for a decade and I think I got dissed due to parsers maybe 3 times. Why? Because I don't play group content half AFK. Pull decent numbers and you won't have any problems.

[Camiie]

If all people are worried about is DPS tracking in anything other than EX trials, Savage and Ultimate, then I'm sure there is a compromise to be had, have 2 different versions of the parser.

The first ONLY tracks YOUR OWN DPS. This information is not obtainable by anyone else in the party at all, so unless they ask, they won't know. This can be available in all content.

The second will ONLY apply to EX trials (all/current), Savage raids and Ultimate fights. This will track everyone in the party and is available to see by everyone in the party.

The reasoning behind adding it in EX trials, Savage and Ultimate is that is where the majority of fight DPS checks are, infact, everything listed has a hard enrage which requires a certain minimum party DPS to clear. It would not be fair if that one person was dragging the whole team down just because their DPS is bad. To counter any point that says you should help someone improve, my answer to that is, if you are doing an EX trial, Savage or Ultimate, you should know your job, you should know how to do the damage required. This is content for people who know what they are doing after all and you should be focusing on fight mechanics rather than the slacker.

If something like this is added by SE, then it can act just as any other HUD element, with the ability to hide it if you don't care, or have an option to turn it off (though it won't stop people seeing it in EX trials, savage and ultimate).

That is something that can be proposed, but I'm assuming someone is going to have an objection to it somewhere.

That's actually quite reasonable, and you will get no objection from me.