Honest Review of Combos and a Suggestion

[Medura]

I had thought that light shot or whatever it is called now did not interfere with combos, if that is the case, then that should be changed.

Yeah, if that was fixed im not sure id be as much against it :P But we would need some tp gain skills back then ^^
Also, theres a few more bugs with light shot, maybe i should just make a bug report ...

When equipping a faster bow, you wont shoot faster, only the auto-attack becomes faster, which does 20 damage. Light shot still takes 4.5 second, even with my 3.3 second bow

[HoolieWho]

Glad to see a topic about this. Personally, I still need more time with the new system before judging it. The thing that sticks out is the free weaponskills when you successfully combo. Shouldn't the combo bonus be the main incentive to combo? Before, TP was the determining factor in when you weaponskilled. Now the end-of-combo weaponskills are more restricted by recast timers. You can't choose to spend your TP on them, even if you want to because they are just not available. I don't know what to think of this yet.

[Zhinse]

Every combat system goes through these problems. Eventually the Community will find the optimal combo or weapon skill even if they did adopt your suggestions. I rather the developers streamline it themselves and make it accessible to all of us and not just the people who read up on games. While i do not think the system is flawless, the more i play with it the more tightknit and well designed i find it.

Pre 1.20. i think Lancer had the most diverse and balanced set of weapon skills. And i thought MRD kind of had a crappy set of weapon skills that felt like clones of each other.

Leveling up as a Mrd and just hitting 50 today gave me some time to learn the ins and outs of abilities as they were introduced. Its true that your combo selection is set in stone for the different scenarios, but the fun and decision making comes from setting up the combo with your fellow party members. The combat Scenarios that you get into this game are always black and white as spank the monster while the tank has agro, especially if you're going through the beastmen strongholds.

Before a large focus of this game was AOEs, and it was initially shocking and frustrating to me but now i'm good with it because setting up whirlwind takes some thought and is interesting, even though weather or not to use it is no brainer.

There are a lot of times when i do a Raw non comboed WS and this is mostly because my cooldown timer is down and i have tp to burn before i end up wasting it. The trick to this is picking which one and planning ahead so that you do not impede your combo action in the future. I especially like doing Whirlwind raw even though the cost is 3k tp, and that's because i had a good rampage going and i dont want to lose it because that effect outweighs the damage of a combo. Or Maybe it is, if you are going to be able to finish the fight/save your party for it.

There is another way to gain TP and that is through Quelling Strike. If you use it on your combo opener or a raw WS, then it just reduces the cost a bit, but if you use it on your tp free follow up attacks then you get free tp (assuming that you hit ). Problem with this is if you're trying to keep hate, the free tp maybe isn't worth sacrificing possible hate for. Another Decision. What buffs you use to power up specific attacks in the string of the combo are also another thing to consider.

I've been focusing on trying to get my raw auto attack to be more proficient, because it seems that is the focus of MRD compared to the other Melees. We're slow hitters and TP also gains slow because of it, so how i treat my weapon skills matters. Its a stark contrast to LNC, which combo's up the butt and always has TP, ways to gain tp, and ways to spend tp.

So in conclusion, the current system the way it is is easier to balance. Having something more complex and harder to design does not mean that people wont eventually find their 3 combo's to end it all. There are bigger things in battle to think about.

[Frein]

I agree with everything the OP says. I voiced the lack of choice concern when the combo system was announced and it seems like my fears became reality. When you incentivize certain actions too heavily, they become the only choice even in situations where they seem less optimal.

For example, let's assume Storm's Path > Whirlwind was the only combo MRD can produce. It's an AOE combo, but you'd probably keep using it against single targets as well. A free WS is such an overwhelmingly significant bonus that almost all other factors pale in comparison. It penalized reactive play and encourages formulaic repetition of an optimal seuqence regarless of game state.

I was also disappointed to learn that the combo system was for individuals only with no cooperation required (other than to keep the target's facing steady). Perhaps the intention is to build on it with party combos that trigger when one player performs a combo and another one "links" them by finishing with a different combo?

[Roaran]

I think I'd like to emphasize a few points.

With the current system, the only way you can expand upon current combos is either by adding new weapon skills, or altering current ones. For example, if you have three weaponskills and they combo in this fashion 1 > 2 > 3, and you add another weaponskill to the class, 4. You can have the following example: 1 > 2 > 4. The 4 could be put in essentially any order, as it is an arbitrary decision by the developers, but by adding a weaponskill to a current combination you do create choice and subsequently strategy. The problem with this is... it requires new skills to create new combos. Whereas the alternative, simply altering which skills can be combo'd and in what fashion they are sequenced does not require any additional weaponskills. The former adds a limited amount of choice and strategy, the latter creates the MAXIMUM amount of choice and strategy possible.

If you take a look at archer, they can make use of 3-4 combos at any time. And it essentially does not matter what situation the combos are intended for, as they can use them in any situation. The only factor to consider in determining what combo to use, is simply understanding which combo, or even combination of combos, will lead to the greatest DPS. Although they have the same number of weapon skills, they do not require any positioning; and, as a result, they effectively have more weaponskills at their disposal under any situation.

If positioning incentives were placed in the weaponskills, instead of as requirements for the combinations, Classes with an equal number of weaponskills would have an equal number of combinations available to them at any time as well. I do like the positioning, I don't want it to go away. But, it is a flaw and a mistake to place it as a requirement in the combo system for a few reasons. First, it creates imbalance if you do not require ALL classes to share similar requirements. And I hope my final point will demonstrate an another.

The TP Waiving. I know people like this, it is awesome to have free weapon skills. But they were never really free. They came at a huge cost. Because your 3 weapon skills essentially cost only 1500 TP, FAR less than what they used to, their damage was reduced and you now gain TP slower. The immediate result of this, is longer periods of time where you are only auto attacking, with brief periods where you try to set up a combo.

However, THE MAIN reason why TP waiving is a problem is very simple. Because you can get three weapon skills for the cost of a single weapon skill. You will NEVER not combo, unless all your skills are on cooldown and you have an abundance of TP. This rarely happens. This means, you can take several weapon skills and treat them as a set of abilities that are always used together and can be considered a single, yet more complex attack. Your choices then are reduced to the follow: Wait for Auto Attack, then do Combo Sequence 1. Depending on your role, this is 100% of the choices you must make in combat. If for example, TP was not waived, you would be forced to make a much more interesting choice. Save TP for the combo, or try to deal damage now at the cost of more damage later. These are VERY significant choices! And would add depth and strategy to the game.

I think I'll just close by saying, the combo system is an improvement. It is fun, and I very much like many aspects of it. But for the future of the game, it is VERY limiting, and we may not see new combos for years to come (whenever we see new weapon skills). And even then we will always be reduced to a few combos and not really having much choice in the matter of what combos we use when.

If you take some time and think about what the following would mean for your class; just imagine playing with these changes:

• Reduce TP Costs to Original Costs
• Remove TP Waiving
• Allow Players to make Combos in whatever Sequence they want, with unique effects for all different Sequences
• Remove Positioning Restrictions from initiating Combos
• Place increased damage or increased combo effects as incentives when positioned properly

[KiniRyris]

Have played as archer myself mostly, so im talking out from that:

Remove Positioning Requirements for Combos

- Nah, it is a part of the combo, if they remove it, it is like getting double damage without doing anything, then they could just remove tp and mana from the game instead

From what i've heard ach doesnt have to move for any of them anyways, distance is the only issue which is why ach seems to be a prime DoW class in the moogle fight. imo they should add at least some position for ach to be in other then distance

[Physic]

problem with your theory is, tp waive is the main reason for doing combos, the effects are not always very useful, in the end you will end up getting people rarely using combos at all, and mostly just using their best WS repeatedly with the increased tp, look at ffxi. While im not disgreeing with your idea in totality,combos need a fairly large incentive.

I do see that for mrd there is only one option, although on lancer i was able to use different ones. I think marauders is the most black and white one, pug and lancer seem to be about setting up the combo that more directly takes advantage of your current situation, i think they need to up the amount of skills per class, because some synergies arent defined enough yet. the lancer critical mechanics, pugilist mp management mechanics, and the marauder movement mechanics arent well developed, with only single skills that work toward these ends, and usually inadequately.

Endring march for example doesnt make not moving fast a good mechanic because it limits your speed so drastically you cant do any positional combos, and its recast doesnt allow you to continue with the skills anyway. but just having that in a very small skill list kills your other possibilities for skills, and makes your play style less diverse and interesting.

[syntaxlies]

positioning is meant to keep everyone from standing so still in battle, it creates a more active battle field. i wouldn't be opposed to combos having more then one position with different bonus to positions.

same combo from front cause blind, from rear extra damage.

However i dont think positioning should be removed all together. so the same combo i just mentioned would not work from sides.

[Roaran]

However i dont think positioning should be removed all together.

I never suggested this. Instead of having positioning required of combos, place them as incentives for increased effects or dmg on WS or the combos.

problem with your theory is, tp waive is the main reason for doing combos, the effects are not always very useful, in the end you will end up getting people rarely using combos at all, and mostly just using their best WS repeatedly with the increased tp, look at ffxi. While im not disgreeing with your idea in totality,combos need a fairly large incentive.

TP Waiving is the main reason for doing combos yes. And this is the main problem with the combo system. I've already stated it, but I'll do it again; If you can get 3 WS for the price of 1, when will you ever use just one WS? Even in MRD case, which as you suggested is probably the extreme example, Archer is probably the opposite exteme, MRD can still focus singularly on combos alone, aside from tanking there might be an occasional extra WS (But notice, the tanking MRD does not combo because there is no combo available, as they are limited to only a single combo. Granted they could move behind the mob or to the side and still pull off other combos, but I feel some Tanks may be reluctant to do that on mobs like Ifrit).

So rather than adding combos in addition to weapon skills, combos have replaced them. I think it's important to understand, you can reread my other posts for clarification; but, even though this is a very early implementation... certain specifications and mechanics make this system VERY LIMITED. The classes that have the most combos available, either have more WS available for combo or they do not have positioning requirements. It so happens that the only way we will see more combos in the future is by either gaining new WS (which means VERY LIMITED additions of possible combos) or removal of positioning requirements on the combos themselves. I would take it one step further, and allow us to combo in whatever way we want.

The incentive to combo should not be, "oh I get a free weapon skill." It should be the added effect, and there should be a choice involved... Use TP now to deal damage now, or Save TP hold Damage, for a much larger amount of damage or some special effect later on.

The only way I could see someone argue against this... is it being much more complicated in the # of potential combinations... but at the same time it is much more fluid... a newer player can grasp, "Everything combos with everything," faster than, "Okay I need to do skill X > Y > Z from position A."

[BlaiseLallaise]

My Suggestion

• Remove TP Waiving
• Reduce TP Costs
• Keep enhancement of Weaponskills by Positioning
• Remove Positioning Requirements for Combos
• Increase Quantity of Combinations and Effects

I'm not sure how I feel on the first two, but the last three are cause for much ire for me. I like that weapon skills can be enhanced via positioning, but I HATE that the same positioning is required to trigger a combo. I have two openers as Pugilist: one from the front and one from the back. Playing mostly solo, I find few occasions when I have 1500 TP at the beginning of a fight to assault something from behind, leaving me with half my total choices for combos. Those last three suggestions would fix everything I hate about Combos.