Honest Review of Combos and a Suggestion

[Estellios]

For how simple the combos are, I think CNJ is a good example of skills being useful outside the combos.

Aero adds a nice DoT, you can toss it out whenever you have a spare moment.

Aerora is AOE and is pretty much Dispelga. As we get more involving fights you can bet we will get enemy/boss groups that will enjoy buffing each other and making themselves a pain in the ass. Comboing Aero > Aerora limits the latter to Single Target but increases its Accuracy, allowing you to dispel/damage a single enemy within a group that you don't want to get hate on.

Stone has a low recast and lowers Earth Evasion, making it nice and spammable for damage.

Stonra has a pretty reliable Heavy effect which is amazing now that most enemies have lost their Ranged Attacks. You get more damage from the Stone > Stonra combo but it gets limited to a single target, and having a means of slowing down multiple enemies' movements can be really useful.

Of course, the simple use of non-combo'd Aerora and Stonra is to mow down weak enemies while farming =P

I genuinely have a great deal of fun with the new combo system and when we get the Team Attacks it might add an extra layer of strategy that might be appealing to you.

[Claire_Pendragon]

This is an interesting and well thought out point.
Personally, there is ALLOT that needs changed, but what you posted is on the right track.
But it feels more like its was the shortcut answer to fixing some small problems, but not all the problems. (As that would require allot more work.)

My favorite Idea, is having "Starter WSs" that cause the next 1 or 2 WSs to generate effects based on what you are trying to do.
Example.
Enmity WS
DD WS (single target)
DD WS (AoE)
Support WS

now use these to start a WS combo, then chose a "Middle Tier WS"
The middles add additional effects if chained with a 3rd.

Start with Enmity WS, which makes the next WS have the additional effect of enmity.
Select Single target for bosses with no adds, or AoE for fights with multiple enemies.

My suggestion is waived TP cost for chaining to the 2nd WS, but either lowered or full cost for a 3rd WS.
This is a mix of both ideas to an extent.

For any of this to be possible, requires allot of work, like adding more WSs etc.

I'm also a fan of long delay "Auto Attacks" that are like the original class attacks. (Heavy Swing etc)
but at least just 1.
This attack on a 45~ sec delay gives us something to do at the start of a fight, while waiting on TP. But once the fight gets going, you will be a bit more focused on other things.
(Keep the dmg and TP generation similar to normal auto attacks.)
In longer fights, this can be used inbetween the 2nd WS in a combo, and the 3rd, so as to help chose when to do 2 WS combos, or 3 WS combos.

Now the only last detail I could bring up, is the variance between options.
If it's a single target fight, you are still choosing, single target enmity, if you are tanking, and you wont vary from it too much...
Unless the effects from the other WSs are decent enough, to wanna try them every so often, when your enmity is high enough.
Which would require the previous tanking combo, to be "extra" effective, so the gamble in trying something else, won't ruin the whole run.

[Bahn]

Removing the TP Waiving is significant, as it then forces choice. With the current combo system, the choice is simple; 3 weapon skills for the price of 1. By removing the TP Waiving, you must choose to either to deal damage now or save your TP for a more devastating combo. As a result, you cannot keep the new TP costs. 6,000 TP for a combo would be hard to accquire, given the max TP is 3,000 and the difficulty in accquiring 3,000 more TP through the duration of your combo sequence. My suggestion would be something around 500 > 1000 > 2000, and the finishing move could allow any extra TP to increase damage or the combo's effect.

I think TP waiving shouldn't be removed, but TP costs should be reducedfor the "correct" combos. I do agree that I dislike the way the current combo system is set up. In order to be effective in your class you're not allowed to deviate from these combos, or else you'll be wasting time. Those elitist players with parsers will be looking at you and thinking you're just being a stubborn mule for refusing to spam combos, and much of the other skills that we have really kind of lose their utility if the "best" combo to use is just this one, practical, easy to use combo with little or no positioning requirements. I also agree that any leftover TP accrued from the combo should be used as a Doomspike-style "TP dump" for the last hit to increase the power of the combo.

The new positioning is a positive improvement, but I would like it decoupled from the combo system entirely. Placing enhanced damage, for example, on certain weaponskills (Brutal Swing for example) would accomplish this alone. By decoupling the positioning requirements from the combo system, combos can be made freely regardless of role albeit at the cost of some effectiveness.

I agree, but I also understand it is a balancing issue. The reason why DDs like Lancer do not have position requirements for their combo is because - well - they're DDs. Having position requirements would nerf their effectiveness. However, based on my experience as Gladiator, I already know why they put in a position requirement for the Riot Blade --> Rage of Halone combo, because if we were allowed to use that combo at any given time, we'd be doing some serious damage for a tank class. I do think the position bonus should be decoupled from the combo system, but there needs to be a compensation for that to make combos that do have position requirements and then become decoupled not to become too powerful.

Finally, combos should be made freely and the skills used should be at our discretion. For example, if I have 3000 TP, the combo should be something I form. Whether it is Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder (For extra enmity) > Whirlwind (For extra Enmity and AOE as an example). Every skill should be chainable, so long as we can get the TP to do it. Because a limitation is made by TP and not arbitrary action, we will only be able to chain a few skills still, yet the variance in effects and skills used are greatly increased.

Yes, I agree with this completely. In fact, this is what I INITIALLY thought when Yoshida said we could do combos. Of course there are balance issues to think about with these new combos, and to be honest I think, as you pointed out, the issue is that this system is its infancy and maybe, down the line, they'll have plans to add new combos, so this part will probably (I'm being optimistic here) addressed in the future.

As I've said before, the combo system currently restricts what we can do, as the optimal thing to do right now ARE combos. Deviation from that system hurts your party in terms of raw damage output, so I do think the combo system needs a bit more refining. Allow us to do (Street Fighter Alpha 2 term here) Custom Combos and require us to use TP to do them. If you want to make things more challenging - keep the current 10-15 second timer on the combo requirement - that way we'll have to skillfully find a way to time our combos and even the hits we take so we get enough TP to make our Custom Combos. If we find players are unable to pull off good combos with the 10-15 second timer, increase the timer to 15-20 seconds to compensate for the fact that the TP cost isn't waived.

Great discussion post Rohan. Keep it up.

[BlaiseLallaise]

In order to be effective in your class you're not allowed to deviate from these combos, or else you'll be wasting time.

This is exactly why I have problems with the new system. Why did they think it was a good idea to force a certain playstyle in this manner? The combo system is, as usual, a good idea on paper, but the implementation is flawed. I hope you are right about them addressing it in the future.

The reason why DDs like Lancer do not have position requirements for their combo is because - well - they're DDs. Having position requirements would nerf their effectiveness.

So, what am I as a Pugilist? I feel more like a DD than a tank, but I have major positioning requirements in all of my combos. I have to start from either the front or back, then move to the side at some point in the combo. It makes for some very difficult soloing when I can't fire off a combo from start to finish without moving, and possibly missing the direction due to miscues or server lag, resulting in a failed combo attempt. For me, it's just another good idea gone bad.

[Roaran]

Why TP Waiving has to be removed.
I think just about everyone disagrees with my suggestion to remove TP Waiving. For the combo system to make any significant changes and to become even slightly more flexible, the TP Waiving must be removed. All the restrictions on which weapon skills work together, and how many you can combine are a result of TP Waiving.

For example, if you wanted the possibility to freely combine skills, yet keep the TP Waiving, there has to be a restriction on the number of skills you could combine; otherwise, you would be able to essentially weaponskill forever (the only limitation would be cooldowns). This may be unrelated, but I also see cooldowns on weapon skills as an incredible design flaw.

In addition to the number of skills, the TP Waiving either forces the player to only use their best weapon skills, (when you can get a free WS, why choose the 500TP Weaponskill when you can use the 3000TP Weapon skill). So that incentive is already created by the players and the mechanic itself; but, the developers have decided to also force us into certain combos as well. Instead of us being able to figure out the best 3 WS to form our combos, they did it for us. (Another restriction).

So, in these two ways, the TP Waiving is an absolute restriction on the players and the developers. Although it may seem great getting free weapon skills, the balances that have to be made to allow such behavior are extremely restricting. These restrictions limit choices, and as I have said.. choices = strategy, and strategy adds depth to combat. Essentially, if you do not remove the TP waiving, you cannot have the freedom to make your own combos.

This is why I listed TP waiving as one of the most important and the worst mechanic of the combo system DESPITE knowing a lot of people think it is awesome, Because who doesn't like free stuff? But things are never really free.

I think we can all agree that the current cost of a combo is the cost of the first weapon skill; usually 1000 to 1500 TP. Because you are able to get more skills out of less TP, and therefore more damage out of less TP, they reduced the speed in which TP is accumulated for all classes.

Just incase a community rep is reading, if I were to pass along anything to the designers, it would be this following paragraph (Everything up unto this point is merely reasoning/justification - I find it hard to argue for the current system because it is so limiting, and because this is really simple changes - maybe not from a technical sense but at least conceptually extremely simple):

My suggestion is just simply this: Remove the TP Waiving first. As a result, the total cost of a certain combo increases to upwards of 5500TP. This is way over the top, so certain weapon skills need to be reduced back to what they were originally. So something now that was 1000 > 1500 > 3000 = 5500 would change to 500 > 1000 > 2000 = 3500. Because TP waiving is removed, you would be allowed to combine these weapon skills in ANY ORDER you wished. so 1 > 2 > 3 would be the best, but let's say a monster is almost dead, you could simply just do 2 > 3 right away, or 1 > 3. The real cost of the Weapon skill is the time it takes to acquire the TP. You wouldn't have to do any real balancing changes, if you simply increase the speed in which TP accumulated. So, by removing the TP waiving, and reducing TP costs, and increasing TP accumulation... skills could stay essentially the same... but you would have the option of combining them in whichever order you wanted. This = MORE FREEDOM, MORE CHOICES, MORE STRATEGY.

[Radav]

I would just like to put my support behind removing the positioning requirement for combos. I also agree that there are other issues with the system concerning TP and the way you're basically locked into doing 1 combo. If they just kept the positional effects as an incentive but not a requirement that would help even the playing field for the DD that are struggling to be considered useful in our 2 end game fights.

[BlaiseLallaise]

...

I have been thinking about it, and I think a good way to improve upon the restrictive elements of the combo system without pissing off everyone by removing TP costs, would be to classify each weapon skill by tier. For example, you have a max of 3 WS linked together, so the first would be the tier 1 WS, the 2nd tier 2, and the big bad one tier 3. Then just allow any tier 1 to combo into a tier 2, and any tier 2 to combo into any tier 3. Then we at least have some kind of freedom in combo choice. TP costs would have to be equalized per tier, of course, and shouldn't exceed 2000 at the top, imo.

At that point, I think people would be receptive to a simple reduction in TP costs when executed in a combo. Perhaps a flat 500TP per combo WS, or executed at 1/4 the normal cost. The biggest problem with just removing the TP waive aspect is that it also removes the incentive for utilizing the combo. Why combo if you don't get anything out of it? The TP savings is vital for the success of the system. They just went a bit too far with it.

Edit: In my example above, opening up combos to cross-class weapon skills yields even more choice.

[Roaran]

I'm not suggesting the reduced TP costs be an effect of the combos. I think best way to explain would be a few examples...

Currently if we want to do a combo with three weapon skills, assuming none of which are on cooldown, the cost to deliver this combo is 1500 TP. Now, if we remove the TP Waiving, this combo, instead, would cost upwards of 6,000TP. This simply would not work at all, so I suggest reducing the cost of each individual WS without any consideration of combos whatsoever. So, if the combo sequence in regard to TP cost looked previously like 1,500 > X > X; and each weapon skill individually cost 1,500, 1500, and 3,000... (This is a good reason why it is incredibly stupid to WS outside of combos)... these skill would then, under my suggestion, individually cost 500, 1000, 2000; and, together as a combination would total 3,500TP. The speed in which you accumulate TP would also be increased.

Now, if this were to be implemented, you could make any combination you wanted, as the limiting factor is the accumulation of TP, and the only factor to balance are the combo effects.

Just to consider the possibilities:

Current System:
You have roughly 4-6 combinations, depending on class and if you consider 1 > 2, which is a part of 1 > 2 > 3, to be a separate combo. Notice the combinations only move in one direction, so there is one limiting factor on the potential combo effects. But, 4-6 combinations would be the sum total number of possible combinations and therefore combo effects. The only way to add onto this is to implement additional weapon skills or one of my suggestions.

My Suggestion:
If you included all of my suggestions, you could have the following....
Assume you have 5 weapon skills with the following TP Costs: 1 @500TP; 2@1000TP; 3@1000TP; 4@1500TP; 5@2000TP.
These are just some of the possible combinations....

1 > 2 Costing 1,500TP

We can get creative and start assigning combo effects. Let's say that for 1 > 2, the effect is 10% increased damage for 2 and all following weapon skills that are apart of the current combo sequence.

Next, 1 > 2 > 4; Costing 3,000TP.

1 > 2 would have increased damage of both 2 & 4, and, in addition, 2 > 4 would have it's own combo effect, let's say 2 > 4 cripples the enemy (lowers attack and movement speed).

You could also have:
4 > 2 > 1; still costing 3,000TP; but having different combo effects. Instead of just getting a flat increase of damage, 2 > 1, for example could become a double attack and 4 > 2 could reduce the cooldown of 4.

I'm simply just trying to point out that, the current system is so limited and there is the possibility for MUCH MUCH more creativity and choice.

[BlaiseLallaise]

I'm not suggesting the reduced TP costs be an effect of the combos.

I understand your suggestion. I am disputing your suggestion with the argument that there must be some kind of TP savings vs. the 'normal' TP cost (for whatever is deemed 'normal') when a WS is executed through a combo, or else there will be no incentive to use combos, especially if the positioning requirements are decoupled from the additional effects (which I agree needs to happen).

[Roaran]

I think the combos effects should be the incentive as opposed to the free weapon skills. With combo effects you can have a much more freedom in executing different combos, but with the TP waiving you really can't.

I'm not saying that there HAS to be a TP Savings and combo Vs Normal TP normal DMG choice; but, given the option... how is it possible to not be on the side of more choice more freedom and more strategy? Maybe some people find the current static and simple system much more appealing? I can't really argue with that... but for newer players I think a system that is more 'anything goes' and the only limit being how much TP you can accquire is easier to figure out than, only B X and Y, of A B C X Y Z work together and only as B > X > Y will they work.

I mean... when you think about it.. the combo system is not really a COMBO system. Your individual skills are no longer really individual skills, they're just parts of a much more complex sequence. You don't really use them as single skills anymore. You can think of it like this:

The individual skills A, B, C; are now to be thought of as simply the single sequence [ABC]. Instead of having A, B, C, X, Y, Z, J, K, L.... you have 3 sequences... [ABC]; [JKL]; and, [XYZ]. And there's very little if no mixing of these... like a [ABX]. So, you can't really call it a combo system... as much as a sequence system. Although the skills are more complicated... we've had our skill set reduced in number. Instead of 9 choices to make at any one time, you have 3 choices. The 3 choices may be more complicated than each of the 9 choices previously... but it just reduces the strategy that much further.