Regarding the Revision of the Prohibited Activities and Account Penalty Policy

[BillyKaplan]

And thats how Se put the freedom of speech out of the game,GG !

SE would have to be the government in order to do that.

[Lauront]

Other players aren't forced to put up with bad players. Just like I can choose to leave and take the lockout when someone's being abusive to me, they can choose to leave and take the lockout if they think my play is sub-par. Just like I can choose to only play with people I already know because I've run into so many abusive players, they can choose to only play with people they know if they've run into so many sub-par ones. Duty Finder isn't "for everyone". Duty Finder is for people that don't care about the quality of their dungeon experience. If the quality of the experience means so much to someone that they feel the need to be abusive, they can make a pre-formed party with their friends instead, skip the abusiveness entirely, and be assured that they'll have a higher quality play experience.

Or they can, and probably will, vote dismiss.

[Zanos]

"Harassment" means speech and/or behaviour that inflicts deep emotional distress on another person.
"Nuisance behaviour" means speech or behaviour that hurts others or obstructs game play, but which is not classified as harassment.
Expressions that significantly lack consideration for another person
Expressions that unilaterally reject another person's opinion
Expressions that compel a playing style
Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc.
Expressions that contravene public order and morals
Other expressions that are offensive to another person

What with all this nonsense, seems like I can be punished if anyone finds anything I said offensive for any reason.

Personally I find it deeply emotionally distressful when a DPS runs in front of a tankbuster, so I'll be reporting them from now on. Should that go under harassment, or obstruction of play?

[New_Game_Plus]

So pretty much don't say anything to others.

[CatfishCassie]

The thing is that, what your version of "polite and acceptable behavior is" may not be the same as my version of "polite and acceptable behavior" is. I may find it completely polite to hold open doors for everyone: men, women, children, people of non-specified genders, gender-less individuals, etc. You may think that only women need to have the door held open for them. Who's "polite and acceptable behavior" wins here? Yours?

Also, we are playing with people from different culture and sub-cultures. Politeness carries differently in some rural town in Alabama, USA than in London, England. Who's set of societal social norms are correct and need to be followed? Who's parents clearly failed?

That's incredibly true. For instance, different religious traditions in different societies can be impactful even on the non-religious. America's "rugged individualism" can be tied directly to the brand of Protestantism that they brought from Europe... a brand of Protestantism that is not nearly as common in Europe. The more collective leanings of the EU can be largely tied to their common ties through the Catholic Church. And this isn't just my observation... I've heard noted atheists say the same thing. Some have even said that the Protestant movement was part of a larger, more gradual movement toward Atheism in that it was a movement away from the centralized authority of the church. Anyway... religion aside, different societal factors can have a profound impact on what rights different societies deem important, or how they see the interplay of things like free speech with other, more collective things like common decency. Thus different societies are going to judge where the line between the two is, and when it is crossed, very differently.

[CatfishCassie]

Or they can, and probably will, vote dismiss.

Sure, but that's already a reportable offense...

"・Improper expulsion voting
This means excluding another person by manipulation of expulsion voting."

[Shuuchi]

I have to say - it's refreshing to see somebody who actually recognizes this. Because this has been my whole thought through the entire thread.

It's sad that in today's society it needs to be spelled out to people exactly what polite and acceptable behavior is - which tells me there are a lot of parents out there who clearly failed.

-dismissive attitude towards opposing arguments
-generalizing and strawmaning the opposition so you seem morally superior
-belittling others and treating them like children

Under these new rules, you can be banned, just like everyone else.

You are not in the cat-bird seat.

Please read the rules carefully. There are a lot to unpack and are very worrisome.

[CatfishCassie]

Why would it be improper? If the rest of the players feel you're not playing to an acceptable standard, that seems like perfectly reasonable grounds for removing you. How would you even prove that it's improper if not a word is said?

Like I said, the problem with turning DF into a hive of "you don't pay my sub" is that there will be no cross-pollination of knowledge. Knowledgeable/skillful players will stick to PF and their linkshells and avoid it like the plague. There are so many other ways to get tomes now that the only people this will harm are the people who are precisely the ones who need this assistance most - leveling players.



Thanks for saying this. It is exactly one of my concerns about the whole thing.

The pop-up that appears when you vote to kick someone exclusively lists what the function can be used for. Any other use is, by definition, improper.

Now... it's certainly possible that abandoning all the lower-skilled players to Duty Finder while skilled players exclusively use Party Finder or pre-made parties might result in Duty Finder becoming unplayable... but it's not probable. More likely, if such an extreme thing were to happen, the lower-skilled players would find ways to get better on their own, now that they don't have people covering for their lack of skill. That's certainly what happens among higher-skilled players when they're hitting new content... they fail a lot until they learn how to succeed. They incrementally improve until they're good enough to continue on. And, for that matter, it's how newbies of all stripes (skilled or not) learn the game in the beginning. Certainly, I agree with your assumption that putting the banhammer behind interpersonal interactions makes it less likely that someone is going to share knowledge. That's definitely a problem that needs to be addressed. But I think that the ideal way forward is to make such positive interactions tenable without removing the specter of being banned for negative interactions. How to do that, exactly, is a more difficult question, but probably involves being able to look at a specific player's behavior over time instead of simply a snapshot of that one interaction. Maybe a points system, where if someone is reported often enough for taking a "get gud" attitude instead of a constructive attitude, that administrative action is considered, but only after a certain number of such negative interactions.

Certainly, there also needs to be an appeals process. Unfortunately, especially given how rarely appeals work out on various social media platforms, I have my doubts as to whether such a process would be effective without a neutral, third-party mediator... which is probably too expensive and time consuming of a proposition for something like this.

[Paladinleeds]

The pop-up that appears when you vote to kick someone exclusively lists what the function can be used for. Any other use is, by definition, improper.

And unless they've changed their stance on it, "Difference of Playstyle" has always been an acceptable reason for dismissal. We shall see if that is still the case I guess.

[Gemina]

Nobody forced their hands, they already had the most tame and the least toxic playerbase in nearly any mainstream online game I've heard of.

Least toxic doesn't mean the game is devoid of it. Also, if you were a GM, your perception on how little toxicity there is within the game would likely change.