BLU as an "Unlimited" Job - Thoughts and Suggestions

[Kaitoo]

They've said they have over 120 spells currently planned. Do you really think that none of them could be adapted or tweaked towards any of those? I already see plenty of short-range area spells (any of the Breath spells for example) and spells that could be useful to tank. Mighty Guard, Sticky Tongue, The Look, Diamondback... the list goes on.

120 spells planned for something that should be an limited class that can only parcitipate in old content, yes

not one 1 spell currently planned with the next expansion and any encounter, composition or anything relevant for blue

Like why you even dodge the direct response? You clearly described and state yourself they should redesign the job into something that has nothing to do with its current iteration. Why do people gloss over this? All your argument become void saying "blue is so fun i want to play it in normal content" while stating if they do that they basiacly make an another job. Again at this point you could ask for any new job, wouldnt make a differnce

[Kotemon]

This is my opinion after getting as much done while i can on blue to this point.

I would have liked to have Blue Mage (and other limited jobs) have access to the Guild Heists as a way to get exp and learn some of the spells. I would have also liked to have this be able to travel with our grand company squad as a way to level and learn magic. It would make sense as several of the dungeons we need to go to is on that list (also to improve the squad stats).

One way to have fixed the blue catalog of spells for formed parties and Duty Finder would have been to let them learn magic at any level. Then depending on the spell have a minimum level or iLevel as a way to balance the job with existing jobs in that content. Like having eruption used at any dungeon after the Bowl of Embers Normal. The same goes with other primal abilities that have a normal or hard mode between dungeon access or associated with new dungeons in that patch and iLevel. This would allow it to be both a "solo job" and give it semi-limited play options with other people and jobs. It would also have not made this quick solo glitch as big of an issue. Especially giving the "limited" aspect of the job, that glitch wouldn't have become as wide spread or the most efficient tactic available to level the job. At some point those blue magic farm groups will dry up, unless you are at the level cap to do them sooner than later.

There is no comment on effects like Doom or lv5 Petrify or Death (if available). As with the other spells now, the end bosses have immunity to lots of stuff. The idea of one shooting Bahamat EX with bio and Tail Screw, 10~20 seconds of doom etc... could never happen and is not a valid argument to make for said spells. Given the shear number of spells I can see why it's a limited job. It's the only one with a mile long bucket list for spells so to phase it on slowly with it's own separate level cap. Is a good way for devs to recheck and tweak its spell list as well as not have players kicked out or quitting for not having specific spells for that specific content.

Also what is the deal with Blue Mages cane? Functionally there's no difference between LV1 and lv50 or possibly any other level. If its just for glamour then let us farm or craft Level 1 glowing Primal canes for Blue Mage. Better yet let us meld Int materia if it so tied with our spell damage.

[Kalise]

A lot of people have expressed that it would really suck not to be able to pull off those crazy spells BLU is known for. At the same time, though, if a BLU can just use those all the time they sort of lose their impact or otherwise be seriously broken.

Well, if you compare it to the current combo that people actually use which is Ram's Voice > Dragon's Voice. That's not particularly hard to pull off especially given the complete lack of CD's on any BLU skills. If anything my suggestions makes combo's rarer (Because CD's) but usable on bosses.

Not to mention, you can still have crazy combos. For example, if you got some really strong skills with long CD's that need multiple elements on a target to get their combo effect. Or you can have some unique elemental debuffs that only have a chance to be applied when you use certain skills.

An example would be if BLU could access skills such as Void Fire, Void Lightning and other Voidsent skills and each of them only had a chance to apply the "Void" element which would be used for some powerful combo effects.

This isn't to mention other combos that could be created for non-direct damage spells. For example, what if there was a buff you had that could be consumed to empower Bristle? What if there was a combo you could do that would consume Moon Flute and bypass its Waning Nocturne debuff (Perhaps giving a damage buff to allies in the process, so that it resembles actual Moon Flute in previous games that would cast Berserk on an ally)?

>Makes blue unique because its not allowed in currrent content
>People want blue because its unique
>Literarly ignoring that as a proper job it would be more of a turret/buff snooze job then Black

you cant make that shit up

>Literally ignoring the fact that the only "Unique" thing about BLU is their learning system and that their combat isn't particularly unique
>Also ignoring the fact that BLU can quite easily pushed in a certain playstyle direction because their skills give them various aspects of potential unique playstyles

Like, you say that as a proper job BLU would be a turret like Black. But already many BLU skills are Cone/PBAoE's that means BLU would have to get up close with the mDPS in order to use them. They also have different radii on their skills, meaning they have to move around (Especially with Dragon's Voice which has a deadzone up close)

Right now they're a turret job because they lack any sort of mechanics or sense of direction (Also, any additional DPS skills are tied behind RNG Dungeon/Trials), so the best play is to spam one of the highest potency skills you have 24/7, to which Glower has the best range to do so.

If you actually have all of the skills on BLU, your rotation is more complex. Bristle > Off-Guard > Song of Torment as an opener as well as what you want to refresh every 30s. Then you have your Ram's Voice > Dragon's Voice for trash. With also Eruption, Static Strike and Glass Dance oGCD skills to weave in.

But just because not only are these skills not readily available to everyone and also because the content they can access doesn't demand them, BLU ends up being mostly Glower spam after leveling up with 1000 Needles spam.

Thus actually becoming a "Proper Job" would make them more interesting to play because as a "Proper Job" it would necessitate these skills becoming more accessible and thus more people would then have access to BLU's full rotation as well as content that demands it.

[RadicalPesto]

Blue Mage was never this super complex impossible to adapt job in any of the single player Final Fantasies that existed prior to FF11. Hell, in FF5 its primary means of attacking was elemental spells that wouldn't have looked out of place on Black Mage, with the only difference being that there were a few boss fights in the game you could break with gimmicks. In FF7 Enemy Skill was basically just Attack Magic But Better. Blue Mage's uniqueness can be represented through innovative rotational gameplay and a condensed version of the current learning system (IE, everything is from the Overworld, doesn't have horrifying RNG, the number of skills is equal to other jobs like its been in most games instead of this filler collectathon bastardized from FFXI).

Blue Mage's core rotation against instant death-immune bosses right now is a completely rudimentary "press off-gcds when they come up, keep up 1 dot, spam glower"... even PLD's rotation is more unique than this.

[Factoree]

120 spells planned for something that should be an limited class that can only parcitipate in old content, yes

not one 1 spell currently planned with the next expansion and any encounter, composition or anything relevant for blue

Like why you even dodge the direct response? You clearly described and state yourself they should redesign the job into something that has nothing to do with its current iteration. Why do people gloss over this? All your argument become void saying "blue is so fun i want to play it in normal content" while stating if they do that they basiacly make an another job. Again at this point you could ask for any new job, wouldnt make a differnce

Yes, I think the job needs a redesign and some new aspects to make it more fun than "spam instant death or spam glower", which is what it currently is. I thought that was obvious. You make it seem like there's something inherently wrong with that. The only difference between ideas in this thread is how extensive that rework is. Have you even played it as it is right now? Because it's really not that fun, even on mobs vulnerable to instant death.

If they're going to fix it, they need to put in a lot of thought either way. I'm asking about Blue Mage because it was one of the most demanded jobs and it's been done in a way that feels totally incomplete. If SE feels like putting out a low quality product like the current BLU then so be it, but I actually have some faith they can turn this around.

[Kaitoo]

I thought that was obvious.

Because you nor me speak for everyone. Nor does anybody else. I already read in many other threads, including this one btw., that they dont want blue if they would be "another generic job like the existing jobs" (aka a functional job in this mmorpg). So no its not obvious and its not something that demanded in unison either.
Heck some people want even the whole combat system redesigned into some unholy abomination to only fit blue in.

[Kalise]

Because you nor me speak for everyone. Nor does anybody else. I already read in many other threads, including this one btw., that they dont want blue if they would be "another generic job like the existing jobs" (aka a functional job in this mmorpg). So no its not obvious and its not something that demanded in unison either.
Heck some people want even the whole combat system redesigned into some unholy abomination to only fit blue in.

But many of those same people who don't want BLU if it means being "Another generic job like the existing jobs" can't even make up their own mind on what they even want BLU to be or how to make it, in its current iteration (Some people say they like), not just another generic job like the existing jobs but with the caveat of having no real content to do.

Since, that's one of the main points that pushed a lot of the people from "Wait until you play it before complaining about how it should be a 'Proper Job'" to actually wanting it to be able to participate in normal content. The fact that it pretty much is a normal job, just with a couple of quirks (That being, the learning system and some fluff insta-kill spells that most things are immune to anyway)

Some of the people against BLU being integrated into the game feel that way because they want BLU to be FFXI BLU.

Some people are just happy with the Masked Carnivale and don't really care either way so long as MC gets more content (Which is not mutually exclusive with BLU being able to access regular content)

Other people seem to be under the impression that an entire new game full of dungeons and raids and unique Duty Finders will be made purely for "Limited Jobs" and that's their reasoning for not wanting BLU to become a "Generic" job because they feel that BLU is so completely unique and different that it only makes sense to create an entire second game around them and future Limited Jobs.

But honestly, as things stand, these are the facts:

BLU is not at all that different from other jobs. Their only unique feature in terms of gameplay is their learning system which means they don't get set skills at set levels and they have a wider pool of skills that they can choose a set of up to 24 skills from to access at any given time (Which is also implemented in a way where you can save different sets of skills to quickly switch between). That and the decision to give them a weapon without stats and instead modify the INT scaling to approximate the missing INT from having an ilevel 130 weapon equipped (But nothing about the other stats that would be on the weapon) which can only be assumed was to do with SE not wanting to have to bother making more than 2 weapon models.

Everything else about BLU is exactly like every other job. They use MP like every other job. They have role skills like every other job. They use equipment like every other job (Sans weapons as mentioned above). They fight using skills like every other job. They have an "Optimal Rotation" like every other job. They gain experience like every other job. Their balance is pretty much the same as every other job (Mostly, they're a bit weak but have like 3 skills which are very strong but not for actually using for their primary role when at level 50). They are, just like every other job. This is not opinion, this is fact. Anyone who has played BLU at level 50 can attest to this fact.

They're not some massively different class. It's not like if it was Puppetmaster that had you play Lords of Verminion in order to fight enemies. It's not like if it was Gambler and you had to play Triple Triad in order to fight enemies. Which would be massively different and completely incapable of functioning in normal content because of being so far removed from "Normal", "Generic", "Proper" jobs. No, it is literally a standard job as is, in its current implementation.

This in mind, the job WILL need improvements going forward. This is indisputable fact. As the job currently stands, it's a bare-bones showcase of a class. There is no depth and it is basically a reflection of a level 50 class in so much as it kind of feels incomplete. It will need new skills to flesh out its combat and to make it more interesting, it might also require some changes to existing skills to either bring them up to par or to give them some relevance at all. This will be the case irregardless of if the class is allowed in normal content or not. It's just plain fact that the job is currently pretty simple and that Masked Carnivale will be getting expanded on in their upcoming level cap increase to 60, which necessitates new skills as well as new MC mechanics to play around. As such, the class WILL be getting more depth.

As such, why not lay the foundation for making the class have some level of coherence. Giving it a more defined playstyle within its basic level 1-50 skills (Such as with my, or many other peoples, suggestions). Which will make it easier to expand upon when they move into level 60 and later 70 and later 80, 90, 100 etc. If it happens that this makes it easy to justify it being able to get up to the same level cap as other jobs as well as being balanced with them while at those levels then there's viability for the job to have its restrictions lessened. Even if they do keep their unique quirks, which is one of the main draws to the class as opposed to just playing BLM/RDM/SMN right now (Though, with an improvement to their combat by expanding on their base skills, they would also be able to carve out a unique playstyle to use as a draw to the class over BLM/RDM/SMN whom all play differently to each other and so draw different people to them)

[Factoree]

Not to mention, you can still have crazy combos. For example, if you got some really strong skills with long CD's that need multiple elements on a target to get their combo effect. Or you can have some unique elemental debuffs that only have a chance to be applied when you use certain skills.

An example would be if BLU could access skills such as Void Fire, Void Lightning and other Voidsent skills and each of them only had a chance to apply the "Void" element which would be used for some powerful combo effects.

I love the idea of BLU working on a system where there’s some level of adapting to RNG and decision making, similar to Bard’s whole deal, especially if there’s a benefit to maintaining a diverse array of elemental debuffs on the enemy to encourage you to use a wide array of your spells.

Something else I saw (don’t remember exactly where, but if I find it i’ll edit this) and thought was neat is the idea of applying conditional debuffs.

Let’s say that the [balanced version of] Blue Mage kept a Petrify skill in its toolset similar to Black Mage’s Sleep. If Petrify worked for a few seconds on dungeon trash or overworld mobs, it wouldn’t really be a huge problem, but if it worked on bosses it would very easily be over the line of being unbalanceable.

Hence the idea: if the target is immune to Petrify (or whatever other status effect your spell inflicts), the spell could attempt to inflict a “backup” effect, in this case “partial petrification” where the target’s flesh is only turned partially to stone and they take Earth damage over time instead of being helpless. I’m assuming most of these would be DoTs or even some of BLU’s “inflict this to deal more damage with another spell” statuses.

Could be a neat way to have a little bit of separate balance between “regular” monsters and “raid” monsters.

[Kalise]

I love the idea of BLU working on a system where there’s some level of adapting to RNG and decision making, similar to Bard’s whole deal, especially if there’s a benefit to maintaining a diverse array of elemental debuffs on the enemy to encourage you to use a wide array of your spells.

Yeah, I mean, I see plenty of people talking about wanting elemental weaknesses so that BLU can play off them, but really, that doesn't sound particularly engaging at all. Given most content you'd end up like Eureka, where you just have X element active which counters the target you're currently fighting (Which would translate to "This pack of trash" or "That boss" in regular gameplay. Maybe there would be some trash that have multiple elements in them that serve no purpose other that gimp your AoE damage)

But elements are a way to provide dynamic playstyle, be it by shifting what skills your using based on elemental procs, trying to build up specific elements to unleash a powerful spell, or simply filling time with some simple 1>2(potentially >3) combos of different elements.

Since, it's not as if elemental based attacks are what you'd call, reliable. Especially for monsters whom won't have as much control as say, well practiced Black Mages or Conjurers that literally commune with the Elements. Even more so for the Voidsent whom are already mutated themselves by the Void, what's the chances that their magick would be all weird and inconsistent for proccing things?

Hence the idea: if the target is immune to Petrify (or whatever other status effect your spell inflicts), the spell could attempt to inflict a “backup” effect, in this case “partial petrification” where the target’s flesh is only turned partially to stone and they take Earth damage over time instead of being helpless. I’m assuming most of these would be DoTs or even some of BLU’s “inflict this to deal more damage with another spell” statuses.

Could be a neat way to have a little bit of separate balance between “regular” monsters and “raid” monsters.

Well, part of that is similar to my suggestion with having these "Element" debuffs, with just the extra effect of dealing some DoT damage (Which would put some more number balancing into the equation) as well as bringing up some questions surrounding what happens if a target is immune due to diminishing returns? How would skills that have combo effects word this (Would it instead say "Additional Effect: Potency is increased to X when target is afflicted with Petrification or Partial Petrification. The Petrification or Partial Petrification effect is also removed." how would the Petrify skill word this? Would it work for all sources of say, Petrify or would Partial Petrification be unique to BLU?)

It's a lot more work to try and make CC skills part of a rotation, balancing between trash mobs and bosses as well as dealing with effects that otherwise have a very consistent usage throughout the game.

It was something I had considered before deciding to suggest these debuffs, which could be kept completely separate from CC skills, so that those CC skills would be used primarily for their CC (But could also provide these debuffs. I.e. BLU's Petrify skill, Level 5 Petrify could still apply the "Earth" element debuff, then as a Voidsent skill, it could also have a chance to apply the "Void" element debuff. Thematically still having a similar effect, only being more consistent and easier to balance)

[Factoree]

I think possibly the biggest issue to be discussed regarding unlimiting Blue Mage revolves around the CC aspects. I think in general it’s been found that aside from a few dungeon minibosses vulnerable to instant death, the CC BLU provides really isn’t as crazy as once imagined when factoring in resistances and so forth, especially with gated pulls where you can’t just Deep Freeze the enemy and stroll past. Hell, you might spend longer trying to Doom the enemy than you would just hitting them with AoE.

Wondering if anybody has any thoughts on what this implies for the game, BLU or otherwise. Could very well be that it’s time for some CC to return/debut on other jobs, or if not it could be one of two opposite extremes: that BLU’s seeming focus on CC should be its core attraction (maybe give it a Scan gauge that shows the targeted enemy’s immunities?) or that a hypothetical balanced version of BLU should get the vast majority of its CC gutted.