Dev Team, you screwed up.

[wereotter]

Rams voice, bristle, Dragons Voice. You can get it off twice before the diminishing returns gets you. And honestly, thats a ton of damage...on trash mobs.

I'll have to try adding in Bristle! I always forget to use it.

I like using Snort between so I don't have to move.

[Flana]

Then you've missed my point entirely.
I don't really care if they make another caster DPS and call it Blue Mage. But it will still have to function exactly like the rest of them.
Point and shoot - press your buttons in an order. It's not going to be a tank, a healer, an off-tank, an off-healer. It won't provide some mythic utility. It won't be able to replace a healer... it will be its role.
Unless - they fundamentally change the core dynamic of group content. Which, though unlikely, could happen. But I'm thinking it won't.

Red Mage plays nothing like Black Mage. Neither of them play anything like Summoner. Do you really think that in the entire history of MMOs there are only three total playstyles and now that we have these casters, that's it. The role is permenantly finished, there is absolutely no new ground to tread?

Point and shoot - press your buttons in an order.

We both know this is absolute nonsense. First, every job in every game can be distilled to the "you just push buttons and win" level. Even everyone's darling of a game XI can be. "You just push your buttons in order, XI has no unique gameplay." Skillchains are just pushing buttons in order. Killing an enemy is just pushing your buttons in order. Literally any game ever is just pushing your buttons in order.

Second, this is literally how Blue Mage already works in this game. There is an objective best rotation that will be found for BLU doing anything that isn't memeing the carnival with 5 buffs + Self Destruct because that is what XIV's combat is based on. If this is an honest criteria for you, then BLU has spectacularly failed the instant it released.

Even inside the carnival, there will be a most efficient combo to clear the stage. You are still 'just pushing buttons in order', no matter what you do and no matter what content you are in, unless you are the BLU equivalent of an Ice Mage and just want to faceroll random abilities because "it's fun."

So is this BLU already a failure? Because there is a rotation that exists? If so then why wouldn't you want to see another rework already? You're just pushing buttons in order like every other mage, that's a fact.

It's not going to be a tank, a healer, an off-tank, an off-healer. It won't provide some mythic utility. It won't be able to replace a healer... it will be its role.

Blue Mage is not a tank. It has none of the tools to efficiently respond to actions that require it except for Fish Vomit which is an instant silence. The only snap aggro tool is White Wind because of the ridiculous amount of enmity it generates. No Blue Mage will ever compete with Dark Knight, Warrior, or Paladin because those jobs are built to manage enemies and survive at the same time. What is a BLU going to do in comparison, throw out a few White Winds and then spam Diamondback?

If the only criteria to be a tank here is 'to hold aggro' then why are you using Summoner as an example of a generic mage? Titan-egi lacks the majority of quick response tools that Blue Mage lacks (although Titan-egi has an instant stun instead of Silence), and has a permanent threat increase across his entire kit. Not only is he more tanky than a regular player because of a pets natural resistance to AoE, he has incredible threat gen with Enkindle and is very resilient because the Summoner can apply a %max hp heal over time to him. Throw in a healer who can target the dude and he can tank anything Blue Mage can. Is Summoner a tank?

Blue Mage is not a healer. White Wind is hilarious but utterly crippled by it's design of only reflecting the amount of HP you currently have. You will never bring a Blue Mage over a White Mage, Astrologian, or Scholar because a Blue Mage's heal immediately becomes useless once they are targeted by a spell. You can only double your HP with every cast. Imagine trying to heal any Charybdis mechanic as a Blue Mage. You also can not adjust to the situation at hand. White Wind is a hard cast that heals in a massive area. Even if one person is hurt, you have no tools to assist them. Heal everyone or no one. In addition to that the lack of ogcd healing means BLU is forced to break combos and completely disengage with the target just to heal anything, not a restraint any other healer has.

If the only criteria here is 'can restore hp' then why are you using Red Mage as an example of some generic caster? Vercure is extraordinarily potent as a healing tool and has no active requirement. The power of Vercure is static and easy to plan around when compared to White Wind. It's even faster to cast, and thanks to the Dualcast trait, can become instant. An instant Vercure also means the Red Mage never needs to fully disengage from his or her target, thanks to ogcd abilities that fit nicely in the opening. And, lest we forget, Red Mage has Verraise, which is extraordinarily useful at virtually any point once you get it.

Blue Mage is not an off-tank. Being a caster naturally inhibits the ability to interact with the tank in any meaningful way because you can neither Provoke or Shirk. The only way you can tank swap would be to permanently sit in tank stance and ride the tank in aggro, forcing the entire work-load onto them should they need to swap and completely destroying your damage. The only way you can reliably shift aggro off yourself during a tank swap is to completely obliterate your aggro by Lucid Dreaming. Even if we're talking about "main tank dies, maybe blu can save the day" you still have to fully cast Mighty Guard and then fully cast another ability and hope that is enough to put you at the top of the aggro meter and that whatever you are fighting hasn't gone berserk on the healers yet. If we're talking about "an add showed up, OT grab it" then Summoner is still far more effective with Titan-egi unless the boss summoned a lot of adds all over the place. Like, MANY WHELPS HANDLE IT numbers of adds.

The only thing a Blue Mage might possibly be able to replace is an off-healer, but that still comes with it's own problems. White Wind is still dependent on your HP which means mass raid damage severely inhibits the Blue Mage's ability to heal, forcing the entire effort onto the other healer. They are also forced to not only babysit the BLU since White Wind is only broken OP at high health levels, their mp is at a constant threat because BLU still can't raise anyone. There is still an unnecessary degree of clunk and micro-management to even get this to work and it entirely hinges on White Wind being a hilariously broken when the BLU is at full health as opposed to complete garbage when the BLU is near death.


If you're going to counter with "well 8 BLU groups can do X", don't. We've already seen full Red Mage, Summoner, and tank or healer only runs of 24 mans and even relevant 8 man content in the past. Is Red Mage now a tank because you can do raids with only Red Mages? Is Paladin now a healer because even back in heavensward they could gang up with Warriors and bully extreme and Savage fights? This kind of cross-trinity action has been happening for years and Blue Mage has not suddenly brought it to the table. It only added one new way to be thrown on top of the pile.

Unless - they fundamentally change the core dynamic of group content. Which, though unlikely, could happen. But I'm thinking it won't.

So, let me ask again, why do you think BLU would suddenly be stripped of every last toy when Summoner has had the same capacity to tank since it launched? Why would that be a thing when Red Mage has had incredibly potent healing and raising abilities since it was released? If Summoner and Red Mage are supposedly so generic that every mage afterwards would just be a clone, doesn't that already just make BLU a rehashed clone of the dps we already had? If mixing some stuff up is enough to make it fresh and new, then why wouldn't that work in the other way to make something new such as BLM's cadence crossed with RDM's fluidity? Or Summoner's micromanagement? Why is BLU suddenly the only job that requires a total overhaul of the game when we can plainly see it works right now?

And most importantly, why are Summoner and Red Mage being maligned as generic and the same when they clearly aren't? They have their own strengths and weaknesses. They found a place in the game to function. If this is the criteria for BLU to be truly unique and special, then it has failed on every account.

[Blueyes]

(...)

I must say, I greatly appreciate everything you've written here. Thank you.

[wereotter]

Blue Mage is not a tank. It has none of the tools to efficiently respond to actions that require it except for Fish Vomit which is an instant silence. The only snap aggro tool is White Wind because of the ridiculous amount of enmity it generates. No Blue Mage will ever compete with Dark Knight, Warrior, or Paladin because those jobs are built to manage enemies and survive at the same time. What is a BLU going to do in comparison, throw out a few White Winds and then spam Diamondback?

If the only criteria to be a tank here is 'to hold aggro' then why are you using Summoner as an example of a generic mage? Titan-egi lacks the majority of quick response tools that Blue Mage lacks (although Titan-egi has an instant stun instead of Silence), and has a permanent threat increase across his entire kit. Not only is he more tanky than a regular player because of a pets natural resistance to AoE, he has incredible threat gen with Enkindle and is very resilient because the Summoner can apply a %max hp heal over time to him. Throw in a healer who can target the dude and he can tank anything Blue Mage can. Is Summoner a tank?

Not implying BLU can or should be a tank, but I'd be remiss if I didn't point out Mighty Guard adds emnity to every skill the Blue Mage uses while reducing damage taken. I've seen Blue Mages paired up with level 70 tanks where the tank struggles to hold agro against the level 50 blue mage. Additionally Blue Mage has The Look which is an exact replica of Overpower, meaning that the only real pieces Blue Mage is lacking to be a tank are defensive cooldowns, and the ability to wear tank armor to increase defense.

Again, I don't think the job should be a tank, but if sometime in the future they decided to turn it into one, a couple of the keep pieces already exist for it to fit into that role.

[Ilyrian]

So, let me ask again, why do you think BLU would suddenly be stripped of every last toy when Summoner has had the same capacity to tank since it launched? Why would that be a thing when Red Mage has had incredibly potent healing and raising abilities since it was released? If Summoner and Red Mage are supposedly so generic that every mage afterwards would just be a clone, doesn't that already just make BLU a rehashed clone of the dps we already had? If mixing some stuff up is enough to make it fresh and new, then why wouldn't that work in the other way to make something new such as BLM's cadence crossed with RDM's fluidity? Or Summoner's micromanagement? Why is BLU suddenly the only job that requires a total overhaul of the game when we can plainly see it works right now?

Explain to me in which content a Summoner is tanking in place of a tank and a Red Mage is the healer.

[Valdegarde]

Explain to me in which content a Summoner is tanking in place of a tank and a Red Mage is the healer.

Ramuh Ex and every damn Alliance I've ever been in, respectively. Also I saved one of my early Halicarnassus savage clears by alternating getting people up and keeping the tank afloat.

Monks have Riddle/Fist of Earth too. Classes have lots of options actually, you get to see some of them in things like Palace of the Dead. They used to have even more before skill pruning and consolidation. Featherfoot/dark dance = Toad Oil.

[Ilyrian]

Ramuh Ex and every damn Alliance I've ever been in, respectively. Also I saved one of my early Halicarnassus savage clears by alternating getting people up and keeping the tank afloat.

Monks have Riddle/Fist of Earth too. Classes have lots of options actually, you get to see some of them in things like Palace of the Dead. They used to have even more before skill pruning and consolidation. Featherfoot/dark dance = Toad Oil.

If this were made more official - i.e Summoners could be legit tanks and RDMs legit healers, then I'm sure the game could make BLUs a proper jack of all trades like RDMs really should be.
Currently - I don't think that's the design philosophy of the game. Given that we have dedicated tanks and healers. What do we do with them? Why bring a tank if a summoner can do it and do more damage?

I'm not against it - it would be more interesting... a nightmare to balance obviously, but I'm sure no one really cares about balance...

[Dualgunner]

Explain to me in which content a Summoner is tanking in place of a tank and a Red Mage is the healer.

Palace of the Dead, RDM is the DPS/Tank/Healer all at once. Summoner has Titan-egi and in a pinch Titan-egi can substitute for a tank through a dungeon.

Also that's a hilariously narrow way of looking at things. Especially in this game where tanks and healers are, themselves, glorified DPS.

EDIT: Flana said everything I ever could have in a spectacular way.

[Palladiamors]

I'll have to try adding in Bristle! I always forget to use it.

I like using Snort between so I don't have to move.

Bristle normally isn't worth it, but the high damage from the Ram's Dragon Voice comb and its inability to be spammed make it worth while. The primal skills with their cooldowns are another example. And I tend to use bristle before going into battle as an early skill buffer.

[Flana]

Not implying BLU can or should be a tank, but I'd be remiss if I didn't point out Mighty Guard adds emnity to every skill the Blue Mage uses while reducing damage taken. I've seen Blue Mages paired up with level 70 tanks where the tank struggles to hold agro against the level 50 blue mage. Additionally Blue Mage has The Look which is an exact replica of Overpower, meaning that the only real pieces Blue Mage is lacking to be a tank are defensive cooldowns, and the ability to wear tank armor to increase defense.

Again, I don't think the job should be a tank, but if sometime in the future they decided to turn it into one, a couple of the keep pieces already exist for it to fit into that role.

Which is why I compared it to Summoner and Titan-egi. Titan-egi passively takes reduced damage in a huge amount of circumstances due to be being a pet. He also has an actual tank cooldown (Earthen Ward is literally Rampart with a longer cooldown). His AoE and basic skills have a permenant increased enmity effect on them along with the fact Rouse + Enkindle generates an insane amount of enmity. I'm not joking when I say he can generate an absolute massive amount of threat with Enkindle.

Does that make Summoner a tank?

No, for the same reason I don't think BLU is a tank either. The only real 1-to-1 is Mighty Guard being a tank stance. The Look, along with most BLU spells, are still spells with a cast time. You have to stop and cast all of them. This creates problems down the line by pushing everything to the end of the GCD. In my earlier post I mentioned if a BLU wants to throw on tank stance and save a party wipe, it takes them twice as long to do so over a real tank at a minimum. Might Guard and your next spell have to be cast before they can take effect. Any tank can hit their stance and immediately ogcd if need be. Even if they don't have one, weaponskills trigger at the beginning of the gcd. Overpower will always be faster than The Look. They're worse in every way to a real tank, which is why I don't believe they count.

Neither BLU nor SMN are designed to be tanks, but they have enough tools to function as a stopgap in the absence of a real tank. I don't think that stopgap ability makes them a viable replacement is what I was getting at.

Edit: Going back and looking at my post, I realize I only refereed to Mighty Guard as "tank stance" once, so I apologize if it seemed like I was deliberately ignoring it. I should have been more explicit and mentioned the ability by name.

Explain to me in which content a Summoner is tanking in place of a tank and a Red Mage is the healer.

I can reverse this question as well. Show me in which content a Blue Mage is taking the place of a real tank or healer. I mean synced coil or extreme primals with a real team comp. Blue Mages only being used to replace the tanks or healers, and not 8 Blue Mages memeing the content to death because White Wind explodes in power the more Blue Mages you add in. If it can't function without exploiting a full party of BLU for White Wind sheninagins, then it isn't a real replacement for those roles. And for every one of those that do clear, how much effort was put in to mitigate having a BLU over a real job?

To answer your question: Summoners have tanked at least O1S, Ridorana, and Rabanaster in this expansion just off the things I've seen from Reddit. I'm positive they've done more in Heavensward and Stormblood, since Titan-egi can work as a tank as long as he doesn't get one shot by a tankbuster. He even has a cooldown you can manually pop to help out with that.

I'm also going to agree with Valdegarde, when I was raiding on Red Mage there were several times I kept the tank or healer alive long enough to stabalize, thus filling out what might be considered the "off-healer" role. Really since most content can be cleared with a single healer, off-healer doesn't really amount to much if the group is on top of it... But that goes back to my earlier point. I doubt anyone will ever one-BLU O8S for example. It's not possible. Blue Mage by design can not replace a real healer like White Mage, Scholar, or Astrologian.

However, I do not believe Summoner is a tank nor Red Mage is a healer. Just like I don't believe Blue Mage is either of those things either. It lacks too many tools to efficiently fill in the role compared to any other choice. You wouldn't BLU because it's the right choice for the content, you'd do it because you can. Just like I can tank random stuff with Titan-egi, but choose not to.