Dev Team, you screwed up.

**Phoenicia** · 01-23-2019 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Kalise

So support classes can't deal damage?

Also, last I checked, BRD's were brought because of their support skills rather than their DPS (Since, they're not the highest DPS class, even with DRG providing a boost to their damage)

As a matter of fact, in a metal comp, the BRD is the highest or second highest DPS.

And based on your logic:
We only bring ninja for Trick Attack... Support.

We only bring DRG for Battle Litany: Support.

Oh BRD won't run without DRG becasue without piercing they do less *gaaasp* DPS!

Just because a job brings some support abilities doesn't mean said job will be shelved into a role that doesn't exist.

WAR has slashing and Shake it off, not support.
Even DRK has support via TBN.
PLD as cover, veil, passage... Heck even a heal. It's a tank, not support.

All three tanks help aggro management with provide and shirk. Also mitigation with reprisal.

All melee have feint and goad.

All casters have manashift, addle, apoc.

So BRD and MCH having refresh, tactician and palisade doesn't push them out of DPS into support. Specially when they are higher DPS than half the melee and one of the casters.

**Kalise** · 01-23-2019 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

-snip-

From all the logs I've been seeing, there are plenty of classes above BRD in DPS.

In addition, 1 support skill does not make a support.

However, BRD doesn't just bring one support skill.

They bring Songs (2% crit rate for party), Foe Requiem (3% more damage taken by enemies), Battle Voice (15% direct hit rate for party), The Warden's Paean (Cleanse), Troubador (15% Max Health/10% Phys protection/10% Mag protection depending on current song) and Nature's Minne (Essentially Covalescence for any target)

Never did I touch on Role Actions when regarding them as a support, because role actions are just that, role actions, usable by every class within a role.

Also, WTF do you mean "Shelved into a role that doesn't exist"? They're quite clearly DPS/Support their entire lore is about being DPS/Support and their kit is about being DPS/Support.

If you can provide evidence that they are pure DPS and provide no meaningful support outside like 1 skill in their kit, then I might concede that they are instead pure DPS.

However, every log I see has them not being top DPS, but I know for a fact that they're wanted for their support otherwise they wouldn't be in every raid group. If they were only wanted for their role skills they'd be replaced by MCH who out DPS them.

Sure, some logs shows BRD as second DPS, but usually also quite far away from the top DPS. I also see far more logs where BRD is 3rd/4th on DPS and have not seen one where BRD is top DPS (It's usually always BLM and if not being used SMN)

**Phoenicia** · 01-24-2019 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by Kalise

Snip

I'm not the one claiming a fourth role exists. The burden of the proof falls on you my friend.

Just having a few support abilities doesn't make you a support. Specially considering most are redundant like the cleanse or a single target convalescence considering the later is considered "useless" at decent levels of play since it doesn't increase healing received from non-spell sources (where the majority of healing is from).

Also PLD has Clemency, Cover, Passage of Arms, Intervention, Hallowed Ground (this cheeses mechanics, hence support!) and Divine Veil. I counted as many actions as you did, still would've shove PLD into the non-existent support role.

Ninja has so much group enmity control and they have Trick Attack. If there is a top abilities that guarantees spot on their own in ANY MMO, Trick Attack is definitely on the top of that list, if not the absolute #1.

The existence of BRD in a party guarantees DRG a spot because of the DRG's "support" abilities. Making DRG's support more vital than BRD's.

Red Mage has flipping CURE spell.. CURE!!! Named VerCURE to make it obvious. And it's not considered support or healer. Oh also Verraise and Embolden to name more things because apparently quantity is very important to you.

Heck even the selfish Samurai provides Slashing Resist down and Dark Knight has TBN.

Support is something EVERY class can provide to a different extent.

According to the logs, 3 jobs above BRD are non-meta jobs, being: Black Mage, Samurai and Monk. The remaining two, being Summoner and Machinist, compete for the same spot of the "fourth DPS" in the meta DPS jobs consisting of: Ninja + Dragoon + Bard + Summoner/MCH. Hence my statement remains true of Bard being highest or second highest in said groups. In a speed run or a "parse run", you won't find said black mages or samurai as they are not considered "meta jobs" even if their personal DPS is extremely high.

Bard does more DPS than the following: 1- Ninja. 2- Dragoon. and Competes VERY WELL with Red Mage and Machinist.

Regardless, I'm not here to argue semantics. The point of the post here is BLU can be a very viable job if some of the spells are moved to off GCD actions, some potencies raised, other spells turned into cooldowns, and given actual weapons with actual weapon damage on them. Instead, Square Enix choose to deny us a full cake of fun and just "limiting" us to bread crumbs (see what I did there? Dhur hur).

**Kalise** · 01-24-2019 01:51 AM

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

I'm not the one claiming a fourth role exists. The burden of the proof falls on you my friend.

And I've provided proof. Or do you want me to go and post all of the logs where BRD is picked in every single raid group and not the top DPS?

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Just having a few support abilities doesn't make you a support.

No, but having a few support abilities AND being picked because of your support abilities DOES.

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Also PLD has Clemency, Cover, Passage of Arms, Intervention, Hallowed Ground (this cheeses mechanics, hence support!) and Divine Veil. I counted as many actions as you did, still would've shove PLD into the non-existent support role.

Yes, PLD is Tank/Support. It's the reason why they're not as favoured as WAR who are Tank/DPS because people don't care about their support skills and just want the additional damage that WAR provides.

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Ninja has so much group enmity control and they have Trick Attack. If there is a top abilities that guarantees spot on their own in ANY MMO, Trick Attack is definitely on the top of that list, if not the absolute #1.

And yet, not every group runs with a Ninja.

Meanwhile, EVERY group runs with a Bard..

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

The existence of BRD in a party guarantees DRG a spot because of the DRG's "support" abilities. Making DRG's support more vital than BRD's.

Again, not EVERY group runs with a DRG. While EVERY group runs with a BRD.

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Red Mage has flipping CURE spell.. CURE!!! Named VerCURE to make it obvious. And it's not considered support or healer. Oh also Verraise and Embolden to name more things because apparently quantity is very important to you.

RDM is a DPS/Healer. That is literally the reason they're only cared about during progression when the extra healing/raises actually matters. Since, instead of having raw DPS like BLM/SMN they have additional utility in the form of their heal and raise which people don't care about once content is on farm.

It's almost as if you've not paid any attention to my previous posts and are just trying to "Prove" that BRD isn't a supportive job in the game by using poorly thought out arguments that I've already answered...

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

According to the logs, 3 jobs above BRD are non-meta jobs, being: Black Mage, Samurai and Monk. The remaining two, being Summoner and Machinist, compete for the same spot of the "fourth DPS" in the meta DPS jobs consisting of: Ninja + Dragoon + Bard + Summoner/MCH. Hence my statement remains true of Bard being highest or second highest in said groups. In a speed run or a "parse run", you won't find said black mages or samurai as they are not considered "meta jobs" even if their personal DPS is extremely high.

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Regardless, I'm not here to argue semantics.

And yet, like other people who use the same "I'm not here to argue semantics" line, you literally came in here to bring up semantics because apparently, "Support" should mean "Does absolutely nothing else but supports allies"

Rather than FFXIV's "Support" classes not only existing, but still pushing out a decent amount of damage (Like every other job in the game, DPS is a high priority. So jobs that make the entire parties overall DPS the highest are the preferred ones, this can mean taking a lower DPS job that has buffs that more than make up for the difference between them and a "Top Selfish DPS" job)

**Dmhlucky** · 01-24-2019 05:52 AM

Role and Capability are different distinctions.
Most jobs have some measure of support capability, but don't fit the support role. They also merged a lot of typically role exclusive abilities and spells in this game. it also does depends on your definition of support.
If" Anything that helps the party" is support, then All jobs are supports, even more Pure DPS like Sam and Blm since they help kill the mobs faster.

Healers in most games are classified as support roles. It should also be noted that all of the healers start out with a DPS spell at level 1, get a cure at 2, and don't get another until the 30s.

With a 4 person party archetype, its difficult to deviate away from Tank, Heal, DPS X2.
And if they create a role now for Support that was dedicated, in 8 man or higher raids, with only 1 job, it wouldn't work, so it would have to be optional to replace a DPS.

Getting ahead of everything anyway, as Blu is capped at 50 for now, but it would take a lot of revamping.

They certainly could give more diversity of spells 51-70 to Blu if they go that route however. If White Wind remains the same it would be busted with a 35k health Blu, while maybe not doable in true endgame content, in DF roulette it "could" replace a healer, especially in some of the lesser cure intensive dungeons. Not having an esuna option does make it a bit more difficult. I think a few more less situational combo spells, and some more variety of elements (for potential blu exclusive content) could be nice.

Also, give Blu angel whisper and every healer will curse it out XD

I want this job to work, After whm, blu is one of my favorite jobs, and it can truly shine in this game, they just need to tweak it a bit.

**Fal_Kearst** · 01-24-2019 06:09 AM

Blue makes me happy.

Thread: Dev Team, you screwed up.

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