DPS mentality in MMOs

[Transient_Shadow]

While I understand your frustration OP. I feel that you're looking at this the wrong way. I had the same feelings when I first started. It was especially frustrating when I didn't understand how half of the game worked let alone how to stance dance. What I feel is the most common misconception when it comes to this game is that everyone has one specific role. This is not the case

Damage mitigation, Aggro Management, AND dps are everyone's responsibility. Dps should avoid being dumb and making healer's jobs harder (aka if you're more of a liability than an asset I will prioritize your raise last. nothing personal). Healers and dps should watch their aggro table and use cool downs as needed to avoid stealing aggro (you may have a higher ilvl than your tank. deal with it). And finally Healers and Tanks should strive to do their best to contribute dps.

However Where you are correct is that there is often times more emphasis placed on the last part as apposed to the previous two points. Many dps are quite ignorant in their duties and get mad at Tanks and Healers when they have to stop dpsing in order to adjust for dps. (insert laryzur meme here). If you get one of these dps (I often times do) and they start talking junk. Politely discuss with them why there's a problem and if they continue being jerks block them. They're not worth your time as a Tank or Healer. Also if a dps is doing exceptionally well or actually paying attention to mechanics Thank them and send them a comm. Positive reinforcement is the best way to promote good player habits.

That being said, I personally struggle to find a good balance between mitigation and dps and respect tanks who can do it well. But struggling is never an excuse to not practice a job you want to main. At the end of the day practice and mastery of your role in ALL of it's facets are what will carry you to victory

[EaMett]

No. Just... no.

A DPS should not stop performing their role because of a failing on the part of the tank. DPS at this point all have many options to keep their emnity under control with every job except ninja having access to an agro dump, and every job except bard and machinist having access to Diversion. However if a DPS is using their tools and a tank isn't holding hate, the DPS should not be expected to just sit around with a thumb up their butt doing nothing, the tank, in that case, needs to be doing their job and holding agro, because at the end of the day, that's the tank's primary job. Anything the DPS is doing is all their only to help the tank perform that role.

There's a thread somewhere that goes in depth about this over and over again so feel free to search the forums for it, lets not side track this one with the same stuff over again.

Bottom line is that party survivability trumps all and the only one with any control over their own enmity is the dps himself. Your enmity your responsibility. The aggro puller gets the blame for pulling aggro the tank gets the blame for capping DPS.

Just because FF14 can be forgiving if you pull aggro doesn't mean it's your right. If you pull aggro on a boss/primal and he cleaves and wipes the party when you could have just stopped dpsing and still cleared, you are at fault for not sticking your fingers up your butt. Your tank is to blame for capping your dps, potentially making you hit enrage, so on and so forth. But again, your enmity your responsibility. Your DPS is not more important than party survivability.

That was the tldr, there's much more to this topic than what I just posted (pertaining to party goal priorities, group effort, etc.) but don't want to reiterate info that is already somewhere in an appropriate thread on the topic.

[Seddrinth]

There's a thread somewhere that goes in depth about this over and over again so feel free to search the forums for it, lets not side track this one with the same stuff over again.

Bottom line is that party survivability trumps all and the only one with any control over their own enmity is the dps himself. Your enmity your responsibility. The aggro puller gets the blame for pulling aggro the tank gets the blame for capping DPS.

Just because FF14 can be forgiving if you pull aggro doesn't mean it's your right. If you pull aggro on a boss/primal and he cleaves and wipes the party when you could have just stopped dpsing and still cleared, you are at fault for not sticking your fingers up your butt. Your tank is to blame for capping your dps, potentially making you hit enrage, so on and so forth. But again, your enmity your responsibility. Your DPS is not more important than party survivability.

That was the tldr, there's much more to this topic than what I just posted (pertaining to party goal priorities, group effort, etc.) but don't want to reiterate info that is already somewhere in an appropriate thread on the topic.

Wereotter is 100% correct. DPS have threat reducing abilities. If DPS uses their threat reduction abilities correctly, the tank should have no problem holding aggro. In no situation should DPS stop dpsing. If a tank can't hold aggro even with DPS using their threat reductions, that tank needs to learn how to play and not be enabled.

[Ilan]

I'm curious if anyone else has noticed that the game and many other MMOs have been going in the direction of DPS first tank/heals last. The crux of this has two primary issues.
1.) The developers of MMOs in general are caring less about tanks and healer then they do about DPS (development wise). Some even go as far as eliminating them altogether. (Tactical flashpoints for example).

2.) People tend to encourage dumb behavior in dungeons in favor of DPS. They want in and out of the instance as fast as possible and care very little about anything other then doing as much damage as possible.

1. Thats because tanks and healers are boring for the most people. I mean its pretty obvious if you just take a look at final fantasy, its not that hard to play healer or tank, but people prefer to play dps classes. Its also a difference between action based mmo's that don't have tanks and healers (blade and soul for example) and classic mmo's (like final fantasy).

2. Someone who knows how to play a class properly will not behave dumb or encourage dumb behavior to gain more dps, dumb players don't deal damage because they are dead!

Btw: A dps who refuses to use his aggro control skills falls under the category dumb and is not a player who knows how to play a class properly, so ignore these people and let them die.

[EaMett]

Guys I'm not going to respond on that topic here beyond this post. If you're passionate about your stance then feel free to start a new thread or find the old one. There's a perfectly sensible system to defining responsibilities on a party goal priority basis and your tank however bad he is (despite his amazing enmity building toolkit) does not absolve you from them (is that a pleonasm? "does not absolve you." perhaps?.. engrish is hard).

In most (all?) contexts dps priority is 1- stay alive and keep others alive when applicable which involves not grabbing aggro, 2- do as much damage as possible ("possible" being the key word). In that order, not the other way around. The fact that you already used your enmity reduction toolkit does not change that (which btw stopping dps is also a tool at your disposal). The fact that one of the tank's main jobs is to hold aggro does not change that. The fact that he could keep aggro with his toolkit does not change that, no matter how easy it is. Especially in a game where the optimized group effort goal is for tanks to build as little enmity as required to keep aggro in exchange for DPS.

Like I said there's a mountain more to this. If you care at all, do yourself a favor and look it up or create a new topic. Yelling until you're blue in the face about how "duuurhhh ma tank sucks balls it's not my fault even though I have full control over my enmity" doesn't change any of that.

[Dualgunner]

If a tank can't hold hate on me even when I'm using all my threat cooldowns, then screw it I'll be a better tank than them anyway probably.

[kamenkuro]

I don't think that's the case. Players not being helpful is on them. There's a bad player for every role. I play all 3. I've been the noob messing up a run. Now I know better. If you just talk to them they'll figure it out. If they're dead set on not using the skills and abilities they have properly then that's on them.
There's no focus on any one role either. While every fight has a dps check, that's only relevant when a fight comes out since gear outstrips fights pretty quickly. The same goes for fights that have intense Tank or healer mechanics. I can solo the Byakko slam now. That's a huge difference from having 3 people stack with you. There's fights that give tanks and healers loads to look out for along with the mechanics they have to dodge. Cooldown management in O10s is nuts. The healer checks they always throw at healers are painful the first few times. Dungeons can be a real test for healers and tanks.

[Raldo]

Dear Square Enix,

Please separate enmity control abilities from abilities with other functions. It is uncommon, but I have definitely found myself in situations where I cannot dump any more enmity on my BRD because I've blown my MP and TP songs for other reasons, and I literally cannot shed any more enmity. That is just bad design. WHY ARE THESE FUNCTIONS COMBINED!?

Refresh, Tactician, Lucid Dreaming. Please change them. I expect to see this with the expansion tweaks, and the changes surrounding TP and role actions. Thanks.

[Nora_of_Mira]

Dear Square Enix,

Please separate enmity control abilities from abilities with other functions. It is uncommon, but I have definitely found myself in situations where I cannot dump any more enmity on my BRD because I've blown my MP and TP songs for other reasons, and I literally cannot shed any more enmity. That is just bad design. WHY ARE THESE FUNCTIONS COMBINED!?

Refresh, Tactician, Lucid Dreaming. Please change them. I expect to see this with the expansion tweaks, and the changes surrounding TP and role actions. Thanks.

My static's BRD and SAM have a particularly hard time not grabbing hate in O12S, both door and final boss for these reason. I hope for their sake they get more options in the expansion.

[whiskeybravo]

My static's BRD and SAM have a particularly hard time not grabbing hate in O12S, both door and final boss for these reason. I hope for their sake they get more options in the expansion.

I was gonna say the same, but situations like this are when you simply work in a threat combo. That's what I do, world hasn't ended yet.