DPS mentality in MMOs

[LalaRu]

...I understand that the first issue is because more people want to dps than tank or heal because those jobs are actually difficult and the developer has to design the game around the largest player base for it to be commercially viable but this has lead to actually having to bribe people to heal and tank...<wall of text follows>

Yes, people focuses too much on DPS, but you need focus a bit more on punctuation.

Reading your post was painful.

About the deeps mentality running wild, the high number of people playing dps is because dps is much easier than tanking or heal:
DPS do their rotation, the mechanics (if any) and they are done. Hell, they also may be dying here and there.
Healer must keep everyone alive, especially who fails mechanics, do the mechanics themself of course, and also must bring deeps and at the end of the duty, when they done their healing job, it is expected, while when short on dps they are to blame.
Tanks of course must take the aggro and set the pace of a run and perfect handling of all the mechanics. If they fail something, the wipe is behind the corner and an inexpert tank is noticed and called at first sight.
A dps failing is much less noticed: things are dying a bit slower but that's it, and no names are called. A dying tank is a call for a wipe, and a dying heal too.

[Dyvid]

Please, if you are a DPS, read at least this :

-Don't pull before the tank, You are a DPS
-Manage your threat, so the Tank can do more DPS easily without fear.
-Avoid AoE and respect Mechanics, so the healers don't need to heal or raise you (I have done several dungeons in DPS and I don't even needed a heal or at least not making the heal make extra stuff.)
-Use your Two Healing cooldown. The healers will thanks you

-Don't pull is correct. Letting tanks pull is a good way for them to start their agro management. DPS should never pull since it's the tanks job to control the flow of battle.
-Manage your threat, so the DPS can do more DPS easily without fear. Sorry but your job isn't to dps, it's to control all the mobs. It's very annoying to see tank's in attack stance telling DPS to slow down because they lose agro.
-Avoid AoE. Goes without saying

[Nora_of_Mira]

-Manage your threat, so the DPS can do more DPS easily without fear. Sorry but your job isn't to dps, it's to control all the mobs. It's very annoying to see tank's in attack stance telling DPS to slow down because they lose agro.

If a tank is telling DPS to slow down bc they cant hold aggro, they're a bad tank. I tank in DPS stance and its my job to hold aggro whether I decide to play with or without tank stance. They have many tools to keep aggro while not using tank stance, it's their responsibility (the tank) to use them effectively.

[LalaRu]

Letting tanks pull is a good way for them to start their agro management....

Not to mention, who pulls now gets also a "pull aggro" bonus intended for tanks. The same bonus that let today tanks start aggro even with a regen active, thing that in the old times were just a call for a dead (inexperienced) healer (or more work for the tank, if you prefer).

Today I can start a pull with regen and if I aoe aggro after a reasonable time I still keep it, no aggro switch to healer. But even with that, regen a tank that is starting a pull of more groups of mobs is still a bad idea.

And pulling before the tank makes the tank take twice the time for regain aggro. If tank is inexperienced or low geared, the best action to do is let the dps eat its mob, because taking aggro back is an impossible mission.

If a tank is telling DPS to slow down bc they cant hold aggro, they're a bad tank. ... They have many tools to keep aggro while not using tank stance, it's their responsibility (the tank) to use them effectively.

Ok, you got a bad tank in your pug, now how you deal with it? I'll give your options, choose one:

• kick tank;
• deal with it;
• show everyone how your deeps is awesome and how much the tank is bad, continuing to pull/steal aggro of all mobs ahead;

The real problem with tanking is a painful learning curve, you get to be good just at the end, and everything before is being a 'bad' tank.

[Nora_of_Mira]

Ok, you got a bad tank in your pug, now how you deal with it? I'll give your options, choose one:

• kick tank;
• deal with it;
• show everyone how your deeps is awesome and how much the tank is bad, continuing to pull/steal aggro of all mobs ahead;

The real problem with tanking is a painful learning curve, you get to be good just at the end, and everything before is being a 'bad' tank.

I dont actually see that many bad tanks like I described in my DF pugs. The "worst" case I see is someone learning and pulling 1 group of mobs at a time, which is honestly fine. But a tank who chooses to drop Tank stance and still lose aggro is not a tank still in the learning process, they gave up on learning and just do what they want and that was the point I was making. I'm not concerned with people learning how to tank, it took me a really long time tanking since HW to get comfortable with that I do now.

[Dyvid]

If a tank is telling DPS to slow down bc they cant hold aggro, they're a bad tank. I tank in DPS stance and its my job to hold aggro whether I decide to play with or without tank stance. They have many tools to keep aggro while not using tank stance, it's their responsibility (the tank) to use them effectively.

And you sir are what separates great tanks from ok tanks. You understand how a tank works and how to play the role. /hatoff to you.

On a side note, just now in my Alliance run I was sitting at 30% health and had to stop my rotation to spam 80 potency Drain because the healers wanted to cast DPS spells. I'm not doing the numbers but I'm sure that was a dps loss no matter if it was me or another dps.

But as the Rock says:

[Nora_of_Mira]

But as the Rock says:

Yep, both examples weren't fulfilling their roles correctly and people had to adjust. I'm just nitpicking on tanks who wanna DPS but not hold aggro because the role is perfectly equipped to do both. Just like healers who wanna DPS and not heal, they can easily do both just fine w/o sacrificing the other.

[Adrestia]

But a tank who chooses to drop Tank stance and still lose aggro is not a tank still in the learning process, they gave up on learning and just do what they want and that was the point I was making.

I’m not sure I can agree with this. Unfortunately, XIV doesn’t provide much of a gradient of difficulty. If a player, in this case a tank, never pushes their limits, they will never learn beyond the very basics. At some point the training wheels, in the case you’re describing tank stance, need to come off for a player to see where they actually stand and what they still have to work on.

It sucks that so much of the content in the game is bite sized duty finder I-will-never-see-this-person-again stuff, because as a party member in say an expert roulette pug, you have no incentive to want your party members to use the party you’re in to grow as players. Thus all the animosity towards players who take risks, ANY risks, in DF. But then if these people aren’t also shuffling off to organized content that requires more effort on their part, that means they will never have an opportunity to get better. I don’t think it’s coincidence that the skill level of the average player is low. No one wants to give them a chance to gitgud.

[Nora_of_Mira]

I’m not sure I can agree with this. Unfortunately, XIV doesn’t provide much of a gradient of difficulty. If a player, in this case a tank, never pushes their limits, they will never learn beyond the very basics. At some point the training wheels, in the case you’re describing tank stance, need to come off for a player to see where they actually stand and what they still have to work on.

It sucks that so much of the content in the game is bite sized duty finder I-will-never-see-this-person-again stuff, because as a party member in say an expert roulette pug, you have no incentive to want your party members to use the party you’re in to grow as players. Thus all the animosity towards players who take risks, ANY risks, in DF. But then if these people aren’t also shuffling off to organized content that requires more effort on their part, that means they will never have an opportunity to get better. I don’t think it’s coincidence that the skill level of the average player is low. No one wants to give them a chance to gitgud.

I totally agree because that's the fault in the designed content given to use by SE, the learning curve is laughable and there is no reason to get better if you never step outside of dungeons and 24mans. Though in my post I'm assuming the tank is just being a jerk hole (as implied by the OP, maybe im just jumping the gun) and is just trying to get high personal DPS at the expense of other players.

A tank learning their limits juggling tank/dps stance, IMO, is more focused on keeping aggro than hitting the top of the charts. In that case, I would encourage them to take chances as they're clearly learning.

[whiskeybravo]

Trying to deal the most damage you're capable of in any game is fun. Period. SE realizes this, and even though it seems to be making them uncomfortable, I highly doubt the community will stand for anything less than what we have now.