BLU for Duty Finder and Raids! Show your support!

[SDaemon]

Let's not take this "70% of players are okay with this" for more than what it's worth. Make no mistake. There are players out there who have only watched the trailer for Blue Mage. They may react to that with, "awesome! Blue Mage looks great and I really look forward to playing it." That's positive feedback, but this person who only watched the trailer would be completely oblivious to the fact that Blue Mage is a limited job. Yoshida himself said that people don't read interviews, and I'd be willing to bet that even fewer people take the time to watch Letters from the Producer. And those are the only places were you'll hear about the limitations imposed on Blue Mage, other than talks among the community.

And there's also the matter of how Yoshida worded his point. According to him, 70% of the reactions where positive about Blue Mage. He didn't say that 70% of the reactions where positive about limited jobs. There is a difference. I myself have said that I really like what they have done with Blue Mage, but I am strongly against forcing Blue Mage, and other limited jobs, from participating in content. Could my reaction be considered positive towards Blue Mage specifically? That's up for interpretation.

Your entire point assumes SE's metrics are using feedback from sources that are unaware of BLUs limitations. I'm far more likely to trust their metric than this foundless assertion.

[MrKimper]

Your entire point assumes SE's metrics are using feedback from sources that are unaware of BLUs limitations. I'm far more likely to trust their metric than this foundless assertion.

Ah yes, like how Yoship said on MCH's and DRK's release that "Their data was fine and that people were just getting used to the jobs" or how "People complaining about MCH needed to get good, because their data showed it's damage was perfectly fine"?

[Fyce]

Just to take a few points you made:

Your changing your mind on what to eat analogy doesn't quite apply, its more of a case of, if I change my mind on whether to paint my door red or green based on what other people said about it, it would be reasonable to assume you could get me to change my mind on what colour to paint my shed. Just because those old interview exists, it doesn't mean its peoples fault to get upset when they do what they said. Its like with article 13 in the EU atm, the EU said they wanted it their way, people responded with no we want it our way, then they carried on doing it their way anyway, is it then the peoples fault for expecting them to change their mind and getting their hopes up?

On the 70/30 split, who are you to decide what the vocal minority is, judging by reddit and the OF it honestly does not seem 70/30, a 50/50 would see more reasonable to me at best, so SE should source where they are getting this from, saying its the official number and reporting it as fact or "Don't really care" is a dangerous precedent to set.

Belittling the other argument by saying "This is an mmo, REE!", calling it silly and the other name calling you do the other side is also poor argumentation, there's a difference between constructive criticism and being and acting like an ass.

1. When there is no evidence of any kind of change, yes, hoping for a miracle coming from nowhere that would contradict previous statements is setting yourself up for dissapointment.

2. Reddit and official forums are by default vocal minorities. Or maybe are you implying that a majority of players participates in these debates? If that's the case, that's ridiculous. So yeah, 150 upvotes on a thread's OP is far from being a majority.

3. I have the right to think that some arguments are ridiculous and silly. And I have the right to say it. If you're gonna say stupid stuff openly on the Internet, you should expect criticism. Also, as I've already said, I already argued against that argument before. If you don't like my interpretation of what came out of that argument, then sorry but not sorry.
I respect people's right to express their opinion. But I don't have to respect the opinion itself, especially if it's trash.
If saying that an argument is silly when it objectively is (yes, wanting a new job to be deleted for the only reason that it's "designed for solo play" in a theme park "MMORPG" which already has a ton of single player content is silly and egoistic in regards to the players who already expressed being excited for it) makes me an ass, then I gladly take the label.

[ReiMakoto]

snip

I wrote out a long reply because I was bored on the train, but it got deleted due to signal dropping and I can't be bothered to type it all out again.
Basically: There is evidence of them changing their mind about jobs, see drk/war/mch
Im saying the 70% number is worthless if we dont know where its from, so until its sourced, the forums are the only way we can gauge albeit a shite one
And thats like, your opinion, don't need to act so aggressive and superior, theres more constructive ways other than ""objectively silly", like its not, in your opinion which is no way objective its silly. People expect criticism on the internet but in a discussion they at least expect it to be constructive not just "ur wrong and entitled".
Also last page I thought you said you were done with this, clearly not.

[Fyce]

I wrote out a long reply because I was bored on the train, but it got deleted due to signal dropping and I can't be bothered to type it all out again.
Basically: There is evidence of them changing their mind about jobs, see drk/war/mch
Im saying the 70% number is worthless if we dont know where its from, so until its sourced, the forums are the only way we can gauge albeit a shite one
And thats like, your opinion, don't need to act so aggressive and superior, theres more constructive ways other than ""objectively silly", like its not, in your opinion which is no way objective its silly. People expect criticism on the internet but in a discussion they at least expect it to be constructive not just "ur wrong and entitled".
Also last page I thought you said you were done with this, clearly not.

There was no evidence of them going to change their minds about Blue Mage. Evidence of them changing DRK or whatever is not evidence to support a change of stance regarding a completly different matter. That's what my analogy was about, you didn't get it unfortunatly.

The "70%" is from the game's director. You may think it's a worthless piece of data, but that data is not for you. You being unhappy about their audit methods is irrelevant, they won't change them for you if the results are not going in your way. Yoshida basically said "we're happy with the feedback we got". You have no weight in deciding if they are satisfied or not.

For the fifth time, I already gave "constructive criticism" about the "MMORPG" argument. Besides, yes, I can very well say that people are wrong and entitled if I think they are. And yes, playing a theme park mmorpg and not accepting theme park mmorpg activities and wanting to remove them even if other people might have fun with is is silly and egoistic. If you don't see why, that's not my problem.
Edit: Just to make it clear, you are currently defending an opinion where people think of themselves so high that they don't care if they end up stripping other player's enjoyment out of the game. And you basically are asking me to play the "nice guy" card and not to "act superior". Not a chance. I despise people who only care about themselves while not giving a damn if they hurt others in the process. And you are actively defending these people right now, against the "ass, bad and superior acting" me. If they want to argue with me, let them, they don't need a white knight.

As for me being done, I told that to Alleo about the argument we had. I never told that to you. Did you think you'd get a free card at being insulting without me answering? Good try.

[BillyKaplan]

I despise people who only care about themselves while not giving a damn if they hurt others in the process.

You need to take a good look at your posts in this thread then.

And yes, playing a theme park mmorpg and not accepting theme park mmorpg activities and wanting to remove them even if other people might have fun with is is silly and egoistic.

But hardly anyone wants to remove the Masked Carnival element and the spellbook log. The complaints are requests for adding content to the game in the form of BLU as an unlimited, proper job. And you have made your claim why you don't think that would work or that they devs shouldn't invest in it, but that's neither here nor there. Unless I missed some crusade to get Masked Carnival burned down since last time I posted here, no one wants to take anything away from anyone, at least not on the side of people who want to see BLU unlocked.

[ReiMakoto]

snip.

You're shifting the goalposts now about evidence, of course theres no evidence specifically about blue mage, we only just got it announced.
Whoa there as Billy said no one is saying anything about ripping out the carnival, at least im not, im saying i want it in df and raids as well, at a proper level. Im not defending people wanting content being stripped out. And as billy pointed out you are doing exactly what you are on a crusade against people with another opinion to you.
As for "that data is not for you", true its for marketing. Im not trying to say Yoshi and co arn't satisfied, im saying im not satisfied and neither should any player, because we don't know its origin. It'd be like me saying in an essay 70% of killer whales prefer the taste of human, then when asked about it I say, well im satisfied with where i got the data so there. And before you be a pedant and say its not an essay so it doesnt apply, it does, if you throw out statistics you need to back them up. Why do you need to do this? Because 70% of people agree with me from data ive gathered from non descript locations, and im satisfied.
And no I wasnt just praying you'd go away or something, i was curious as to why you were still here when you said you were leaving, apparantly i misinterpretted you.
I'm not trying to white knight anyone. You're making up a group of people im apparantly arguing for and represent

[Alleo]

So people that want blue mage as a true job while still having the carneval as the solo part are now those that think to high of themselves and that are hurting others?

People want it in other content and have said more than once that they would be fine if they still have certain skill for solo play. The change that people want would make it a win win for everyone. Have the solo carnival to test your skills, be able to kill monsters outside of instances with awesome moves that you learned from monsters and have people that want it in content too be able to use it there with a certain rotation that you get by doing the job quests (which are already there for this blue mage)

But okay that opinion is hurtful and totally trash in some peoples opinion...

What exactly is still solo content on the blue mage that we are seemingly getting? Yoshida talks about having a solo part in an MMO and changing things up but the only thing that makes it different from other jobs in that part is the carnival and the collection of monster skill (which probably need groups for some of them anyway) and them not being able to do recent content. Everything else can already be done with normal jobs too and heck these normal jobs can even try more solo challenges on top of that. (Eureka and Deep dungeons)

A blue can go around and kill monsters on the overworld -> can be done by any other job too (and other jobs level better with Fates). Its not like you need to do group play if you want to level up another job. You can do this solely by killing monsters and doing fates.
A blue can go and do dungeon and primals (but it remains to be seen if they can do that solo, I doubt it) -> any other job can do dungeons and primals for farming solo with unsynch too

And SE already is introducing other solo playstyles with Shadowbringers by giving us the new NPC system which seemingly allows people to go into Shadowbringer dungeons with NPCs. So this game is already quite solo friendly and is turning even more solo friendly in the future. All your gatherers and crafters are kinda solo, all jobs can be leveled solo too, the MSQ is mostly solo with some group instaces but that might change in the next expansion (and nobody truly stops anyone from leveling to max level outside of it and then running each dungeon for the MSQ unsynch). Honestly the only group content you need people for are PVP (which can be kinda solo too since you can ignore your team completely and do your own thing for marks) and savage/extreme instances in current content. (And again if you wait long enough you can get everything from this one or two expansions down the line solo too)

Honestly this game is already in many ways more a single player game than a MMO. And its fine because there is enough for both sides to do. Yet now suddenly they talk about more solo stuff by introducing a limited job that honestly cant do that much more solo than other jobs and that next to the carnival offers nothing that more special in that part than other jobs.

So IMO having it as a normal job with some special functions in solo content and the carnival on top of that would be the best version and would please both sides too.

[SDaemon]

Ah yes, like how Yoship said on MCH's and DRK's release that "Their data was fine and that people were just getting used to the jobs" or how "People complaining about MCH needed to get good, because their data showed it's damage was perfectly fine"?

Except players had numerical data to support their requests for buffs. You have something to show that their metrics are using feedback from sources unfamiliar with BLUs limitation?

[Alleo]

Except players had numerical data to support their requests for buffs. You have something to show that their metrics are using feedback from sources unfamiliar with BLUs limitation?

We dont have metrics for that but we also can see that this official forum is quite splitted on its opinion about blue with some being in the "I wait for release to judge it-camp". The JP forum also seems to be similiar to ours, reddit was also talking quite much about this after fanfest and liveletter, and both times it was again splitted. So it really begs the question on where they go their data from? There was no questionaire on this forum or per mail. How big was their sample? What questions did they ask or what answers did they look for?

They cant have asked the majority of their playerbase because most probably wont even see things like fanfest, liveletters or twitter posts and at least on reddit and here its definitely not 70/30.

(And I do doubt the answers even more since they are only calling it a new job on the special page so who knows how accurate any numbers are)