BLU for Duty Finder and Raids! Show your support!

[Fyce]

-snip-

Again, if people got their hopes up by assuming that SE would change their mind simply because they already did a few times, that's their own fault. SE never hyped anyone about making BLU a regular job. Quite the opposite, in fact. So if some people thought that they were going to do the opposite, that's on them, not on SE.
If I change my mind about what I want to eat today, does it mean that I'll paint the door in red when I said that I was going to paint it in green? No. And assuming that would be ridiculous. Stop trying to find people some lame excuses because they got their hopes crushed after hyping themselves over the complete opposite of what they were told.

Regarding the 70/30, they already said that they didn't only listen to the vocal minority. I don't have anything to tell you on the matter, and I'm not here to debunk any conspiration theory of whatever. I was just quoting an official number given by the game's director. Do whatever you want with it, I don't really care.

For the Carnival: good for you to insist on it. But it wasn't my point. That's all I'm saying. Feel free to argue with anyone else about the issues you think are important. But not with me, as I didn't bring it up at all. I just said that Yoshida gave an answer to these "this is an MMO! REEEEE!" silly arguments. If you want to use strawmans or move goalposts, do as you wish, but don't expect me to follow.

As for the end, of course, people are free to express themselves. I never said otherwise. But on that point, I have to remind people that they are not entitled to anything, and that saying stuff like "SE is just lazy" while showing a clear lack of any game design knowledge doesn't help anything or anyone. And it's also not because they voice their minds that SE has to respond or change anything. It seems that people can't accept that. The same people saying "this is a waste of ressources, delete". There's a difference in providing constructive criticism and acting like a spoiled child.

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Edit: Just to be clear, I'm done with this back and forth. I don't see it bringing anything worth debating over. That's basically the third time I'm repeating what I already said. It's going a bit too much in circles to my tastes. Feel free to answer one more time if you want the last word though, I'd gladly give it to you.

[ReiMakoto]

Snip

Just to take a few points you made:

Your changing your mind on what to eat analogy doesn't quite apply, its more of a case of, if I change my mind on whether to paint my door red or green based on what other people said about it, it would be reasonable to assume you could get me to change my mind on what colour to paint my shed. Just because those old interview exists, it doesn't mean its peoples fault to get upset when they do what they said. Its like with article 13 in the EU atm, the EU said they wanted it their way, people responded with no we want it our way, then they carried on doing it their way anyway, is it then the peoples fault for expecting them to change their mind and getting their hopes up?

On the 70/30 split, who are you to decide what the vocal minority is, judging by reddit and the OF it honestly does not seem 70/30, a 50/50 would see more reasonable to me at best, so SE should source where they are getting this from, saying its the official number and reporting it as fact or "Don't really care" is a dangerous precedent to set.

Belittling the other argument by saying "This is an mmo, REE!", calling it silly and the other name calling you do the other side is also poor argumentation, there's a difference between constructive criticism and being and acting like an ass.

[Arkdra]

On the 70/30 split, who are you to decide what the vocal minority is, judging by reddit and the OF it honestly does not seem 70/30, a 50/50 would see more reasonable to me at best, so SE should source where they are getting this from, saying its the official number and reporting it as fact or "Don't really care" is a dangerous precedent to set.

There's maybe 100-150 unique posters in this 69 (Nice.) page long thread. The angry thread on Reddit was off the front page by the 2nd day. My worthless anecdotal evidence is that everyone I have explained the blu job to think it sounds cool as hell and whenever it's come up in fc chat the ratio of people who think it sounds cool vs. people disappointed they can't main blu is 10:1. I've gotten literally 0 pushback from anyone on the concept of limited jobs itself, just some disappointed blu fans mad it happened to them.

Frankly, if I had my way, all new jobs from here on would be limited.

[ReiMakoto]

There's maybe 100-150 unique posters in this 69 (Nice.) page long thread. The angry thread on Reddit was off the front page by the 2nd day. My worthless anecdotal evidence is that everyone I have explained the blu job to think it sounds cool as hell and whenever it's come up in fc chat the ratio of people who think it sounds cool vs. people disappointed they can't main blu is 10:1. I've gotten literally 0 pushback from anyone on the concept of limited jobs itself, just some disappointed blu fans mad it happened to them.

Frankly, if I had my way, all new jobs from here on would be limited.

Yeah, anectodal evidence like that is pretty worthless, because I could also say everyone I know hates the idea of limited jobs and the implementation of blue mage they are going for. So as it stands unless theres some kind of secret census we don't know about, 70% sounds made up because the OF and Reddit are the only public feedback we get. Also your point about it being off the front page in a day is kinda wrong, they actually made 2 blu threads because the first was so popular, and the way reddit works is that content naturally gets pushed off after a day or so, it doesn't go back to the top unless you pin it, unless it was pinned or mega threaded, you would need to make a new blu discussion daily to keep it on the front page.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Yeah, anectodal evidence like that is pretty worthless, because I could also say everyone I know hates the idea of limited jobs and the implementation of blue mage they are going for. So as it stands unless theres some kind of secret census we don't know about, 70% sounds made up because the OF and Reddit are the only public feedback we get. Also your point about it being off the front page in a day is kinda wrong, they actually made 2 blu threads because the first was so popular, and the way reddit works is that content naturally gets pushed off after a day or so, it doesn't go back to the top unless you pin it, unless it was pinned or mega threaded, you would need to make a new blu discussion daily to keep it on the front page.

Uh no... As long as it has lots of upvotes and comments, it stays on the first page for a while. It went to the second page due to lack of interest over more interesting threads.

[ReiMakoto]

Uh no... As long as it has lots of upvotes and comments, it stays on the first page for a while. It went to the second page due to lack of interest over more interesting threads.

I have never seen something on r/ffxiv stay on the front page for more than 1 day, no matter how upvoted or commented it is, again anecdotal but that was also one of the most commented on threads I have ever seen on the sub, with a fairly decent amount of upvotes, if that can't stay on the front page for more than a day then nothing can

Edit: After spending some time just scrolling through the top posts of all time on the sub, the only thing I can find close to the number of comments on the original BLU discussion thread is when the job guides went up for stormblood and that still has 800 less comments, so unless I can find anything else, it might be the most commented on thread in the sub, so if that doesn't last more than a day (assuming thats accurate idk) then again what would?

Edit 2: Found a givaway thread with more comments, previous points still stand

Final Edit: Found a statistics website, it is the 5th most commented thread on the sub of all time, previous points again still stand

[Arkdra]

Yeah, anectodal evidence like that is pretty worthless, because I could also say everyone I know hates the idea of limited jobs and the implementation of blue mage they are going for. So as it stands unless theres some kind of secret census we don't know about, 70% sounds made up because the OF and Reddit are the only public feedback we get. Also your point about it being off the front page in a day is kinda wrong, they actually made 2 blu threads because the first was so popular, and the way reddit works is that content naturally gets pushed off after a day or so, it doesn't go back to the top unless you pin it, unless it was pinned or mega threaded, you would need to make a new blu discussion daily to keep it on the front page.

There's all sorts of other forums and social media that the community team presumably trawls for their data, because official forums like this one are inherently worthless for metrics (only people overly invested in a game will post on official forums and this forum in particular has a lot of people who look at ff11 fondly and also occasionally pine for 1.0 so their opinions are safe to disregard). But they are great for yelling at nobody in particular.

Although, just to be clear, I think they made that percentage up too. Not because I think it's wrong, but because knowing that would imply the community team is doing their job and that is a great joke if I ever heard one.

[Blueyes]

Let's not take this "70% of players are okay with this" for more than what it's worth. Make no mistake. There are players out there who have only watched the trailer for Blue Mage. They may react to that with, "awesome! Blue Mage looks great and I really look forward to playing it." That's positive feedback, but this person who only watched the trailer would be completely oblivious to the fact that Blue Mage is a limited job. Yoshida himself said that people don't read interviews, and I'd be willing to bet that even fewer people take the time to watch Letters from the Producer. And those are the only places were you'll hear about the limitations imposed on Blue Mage, other than talks among the community.

And there's also the matter of how Yoshida worded his point. According to him, 70% of the reactions where positive about Blue Mage. He didn't say that 70% of the reactions where positive about limited jobs. There is a difference. I myself have said that I really like what they have done with Blue Mage, but I am strongly against forcing Blue Mage, and other limited jobs, from participating in content. Could my reaction be considered positive towards Blue Mage specifically? That's up for interpretation.

[alimdia]

Uh no... As long as it has lots of upvotes and comments, it stays on the first page for a while. It went to the second page due to lack of interest over more interesting threads.

That's not how Reddit works.

[Alleo]

Let's not take this "70% of players are okay with this" for more than what it's worth. Make no mistake. There are players out there who have only watched the trailer for Blue Mage. They may react to that with, "awesome! Blue Mage looks great and I really look forward to playing it." That's positive feedback, but this person who only watched the trailer would be completely oblivious to the fact that Blue Mage is a limited job. Yoshida himself said that people don't read interviews, and I'd be willing to bet that even fewer people take the time to watch Letters from the Producer. And those are the only places were you'll hear about the limitations imposed on Blue Mage, other than talks among the community.

Thats exactly my problem with numbers like that. What did they ask or look for? Where did they get it? How many sites did they look over to get it? Was it unbiased or did they look at this through their own filters? (It would be much better if we had a ingame questionnaire after the release to get true answers to this)

Also what I found quite interesting: I checked the site for 4.5 and they only write: New job Blue mage there. No hint that it would be limited at all. If someone does not follow any interviews/liveletters they might even get the idea that this is a normal job in this game. Why not include the word "limited" in it?