BLU for Duty Finder and Raids! Show your support!

[jameseoakes]

Dancer should also be restricted to female only according to Final Fantasy Tactics.

In that case bard should be restricted to males

[TheHeavenAbyss]

snip

Your post is love.

[Alleo]

2. Would you question this "70% positive" number if it was "70% negative"? I know quite a bunch of people who wouldn't. Whatever the case, the "BLU debate" was pretty divisive. And while the "negative" side received more support from vocal people (as the vocal side always does), it clearly wasn't enought to push the balance. There has been a lot of other debates in the history of FFXIV that have been way more heated than that. So, if you want to say that the forums and reddit are a good indicator, well, what I'm taking from it is that most people simply don't care. Most BLU threads are already dead, and reddit didn't see a new popular thread about limited jobs or BLU in quite some time now. I do think it's quite plausible to think that most people are in a "as long as it's fun, it's fine" mindset.

3. If you think that nobody did bring the "this is an MMORPG, I don't want solo content!" argument, then I have to question your reading skills. I've argued against countless people using that already. This very thread has a bunch of good examples.

So people would need to read every single interview for the last few years to show that they care and are passionate? Not simply know of the job from older FF and were looking forward this as a normal job because there was no limited job before? Again, just because Yoshida states something in an interview does not mean that they wont do something else. They have stated quite a bit for housing (like timers would be bad and thus never happen..) and yet here we are with a lot of those things that they said that did not happen that way. When people point these interviews out I remember that quite a few posters stated that they are allowed to change their opinion. Yet suddenly with Blue its quite obvious that they stated it a certain way thus people are not allowed to be annoyed about it?

Yes I honestly would question a lot of numbers from them especially after things like Eureka and Diadem. Numbers without a way to check them, especially from companies are often just pure PR and I doubt that they would ever go around and say in an interview that the community was split on this.

My reading skills are fine. People are against the solo part when it involves the job not being able to play current content, I have never once in these discussions read that people dont want the carnival to happen..and that is probably the truest part of the "solo job" advertisement anyway..since you need other people to clear dungeons and primaes..(so its not even a true solo job anyway and can only be used in old content)

A few of the people I know that mentioned something like that you're responded to also laid out / referenced ways to fix these issues though - they havent (not all) simply left the issues where they lie. Some have been asking for the more extreme version but the people I see most frequently are not.


Issue 3: Blue Mage has to learn their skills they're all about learning skills.
Solution: .. ... Let them learn their skills, because of solution 1 we'll have no problem. In fact in the long run blue mage may be cheaper to maintain. Each job getting a quest every 5 levels (or more) that has to be made up in lore, scripted, and then translated into many languages meanwhile blue mage is taking assets already in the game and needs no job quest except if SE wants to add one just because.

Nice list.

Its funny because in the last liveletter they have stated that blue will still have the quests every 5 levels (if I am wrong about that please correct me) and need certain skills to do them...hmmm strange...sounds a bit like a normal job right? Honestly right now nothing really shows me why it had to be restricted. It has normal job quests which could have been used to give them the necessary skills for dungeons (and only unlock the dungeons if they have done them) and these skills from the quests could have been the ones that needed balance..thus blue has a rotation for instances that uses balanced monster skills that were still learned the blue way and outside of dungeons they can use the rest of the skills too. With that you have a blue for all content. Just force the learned quest skills into the bar when you are in a dungeon and problem solved. Since we already saw that they have changed the outcome of bad breath this could have easily be done with the quests skills too.

So what exactly hinders them from going that way? Something which we thought about in that short amount of time while they had years to implement it..

[Fyce]

So people would need to read every single interview for the last few years to show that they care and are passionate? Not simply know of the job from older FF and were looking forward this as a normal job because there was no limited job before? Again, just because Yoshida states something in an interview does not mean that they wont do something else. They have stated quite a bit for housing (like timers would be bad and thus never happen..) and yet here we are with a lot of those things that they said that did not happen that way. When people point these interviews out I remember that quite a few posters stated that they are allowed to change their opinion. Yet suddenly with Blue its quite obvious that they stated it a certain way thus people are not allowed to be annoyed about it?

I just think it's hypocritical to be someone active on forums, reddit and other social media for years, claiming to have waited to "main BLU for 5 years", but either not doing some research on what was said about it, or dismissing it as "they said it but I don't believe it". Have they ever said something and did something else? Yes. But the opposite is also true. They already said things and did said things. So, thinking that BLU was going to be implemented as a regular job when they specifically stated otherwise is setting yourself up for dissapointment.

Yes I honestly would question a lot of numbers from them especially after things like Eureka and Diadem. Numbers without a way to check them, especially from companies are often just pure PR and I doubt that they would ever go around and say in an interview that the community was split on this.

If you don't believe official numbers and think that they are lying, that's your own problem. If they are satisfied with the feedback they got for their game and its features, that's their business. The only thing you can do is complain and vote with your wallet if you are not satisfied. But you believing their numbers or not is really not something they care about I'm afraid.

My reading skills are fine. People are against the solo part when it involves the job not being able to play current content, I have never once in these discussions read that people dont want the carnival to happen..and that is probably the truest part of the "solo job" advertisement anyway..since you need other people to clear dungeons and primaes..(so its not even a true solo job anyway and can only be used in old content)

Why do you insist on making this about people asking to remove the Carnivale? This is absolutly not what I said, and I hoped that my previous answer would put you back on track, but it apparently didn't. My point was about people using the "this is not a single player game, this is a MMORPG" argument to refuse Limited BLU.
So if that strawman could stop, it'd be great, thank you.

[Shougun]

So what exactly hinders them from going that way? Something which we thought about in that short amount of time while they had years to implement it..

Definitely brings up a question doesn't it lol. I /imagine/ it was something like this:

The guy who is working on blue mage (we saw on stream), now known as blue fan - who while I didn't check wouldn't be surprised was the one who made blue mage in ffxi.

Blue Fan: 2.0 planning for 3.0 "So I saw on the forums some people want blue mage, I think we should do it!"
Team: "Other jobs are more important right now"
Blue Fan: "guys guys lets make blue mage happen! 4.0 it's the year!"
Team: *looks at their plate* "no"
Blue Fan: "5.0?"
Team: "Ninja was already a pain, now you want us to do this?" *waves arms at 100 skills, screams*
Yoshida: "Blue Fan my child, blue mage is probably going to come out in 8.0 or never - it's just not a high priority but I respect your passion"
Blue Fan: *implodes*
Yoshida: "Alright alright but the way you want it, like FFXI, can't be balanced.. and our art team is already making all the weapons for the other two new jobs.. and our pvp team doesn't need another variable.. and the savage team doesn't need another case to think about on top of the two new ones we just gave them.. if we're going to make this happen it's going to have to be different"
Blue Fan: *starts working on their passion project*

Not wanting to juggle /another job/ and that (at least from info and a possible leak) we assume the team is working on two other jobs already, I imagine Blue Mage is being loved by select members of the team but due to Blue Fan being a driving force and a devout to the 100 skill pick up (FFXI) side of Blue Mage we're getting this.

Again all hypothetical but I imagine one person on the team really pushed the job and because of that we're getting a very specific and abnormal but also limited job. It's possible we would have never got a job any other way.

So to me it's not about telling the team "how dare you start blue mage without duty finder" but asking them to /not/ give up on a duty finder version, keep those passionate on blue mage to grab the essence of their open gameplay and turn it into a compelling duty finder safe experience. While /keeping/ the solo gotta catch em all skill experience for players who just want to do that sort of content. I'm looking at this current version of blue mage as a foot in the door to getting blue mage in duty finder, but also as a way to see SE make weird jobs again (with core twists, like learning all their skills, crafting their toolkit (puppetmaster), training/raising their kit (beastmaster), etc).

I would not be mad, I would in fact be excited, if SE was like "due to the unique complexities of blue mage and all the other features we're bringing to 5.0 we've decided it'll be best to get blue mage into your hands sooner as a limited job but we will continue to work on blue mage until it's an advanced job so please look forward to it!". As I said I think all the weird jobs could make great candidates for that system, because then each system can feel pretty unique and polished as well they might be able to sneak a third job into each expansion now. Beast master released for 5.5 (limited), 6.3-5 (hopefully lol) beast master can now join raids and also has a wonderfully crafted side content.

I do realize that Yoshi, or other players, might be thinking . . . "so these advanced/unlimited jobs... they have more content than others..?". Which I'd say barrier to entry for these side contents can be managed such that if you main gunblade but want to do the circus with blue mage the circus doesn't focus on gear so much (like pvp, not your skills of course). Such that because of the job system anyone could quickly have fun with the side content of an advanced job but not have to main it to do so (not punished by tomestone caps because you didn't spend them on blue mage just to play the circus when you main another job). Also consider that if the rewards are not /amazing/ that it's not too much of a leg up either, considering we already have some jobs that come with mounts (after some work). As long as the barrier to entry isn't too high such that you can't main something else and also play it, and the rewards are not like "best gear in the game", I think it's fine to give some jobs more side content than others (bard being a bad example, but an example, since the performance doesn't reward you things).

All of this is though why I both made sure to put issue 8 and 9 in the list and said that I think they're very compelling, fairly certain SE could make Blue Mage learn skills, be exciting, and work in duty finder but they chose not to because of time, money, and desire (Yoshida/team being swamped with two other jobs, Blue Fan being a huge fan or creator of FFXI's custom loadout). But we might be able to take this moment and turn it into something even better, which is what I hope to do (select few jobs that also include side content and systems concept). So hopefully at 4.5 blue release we can all have some fun (or not lol) and come back and ask for duty finder to be worked on too with perhaps some examples from the system itself~ :3 <3

[Elerus]

I do realize that Yoshi, or other players, might be thinking . . . "so these advanced/unlimited jobs... they have more content than others..?". Which I'd say barrier to entry for these side contents can be managed such that if you main gunblade but want to do the circus with blue mage the circus doesn't focus on gear so much (like pvp, not your skills of course).

I think I get what you're saying, but the situation Square has thus set for themselves is untenable outside of some very bad outcomes for not just Blue Mage but any and all future limited jobs as a whole. Please allow me to explain: it is true that a new job is not just a content drop, but a content commitment. New jobs must be balanced (or at least time must be put into the appearance of balance), and new skill must be evaluated for addition and/or cutting each expansion forevermore - every patch, every expansion, etc. Square already seems to be having trouble accomplishing this (looking at you MCH and Ninja). So perhaps BLU's system appear appealing at first, but the issue then arises that for the above not to be an issue any Limited Job must thereafter be relegated to side content forever. The second any Limited Job is allowed to interact with relevant content in any way the entire house of cards collapses. That's why I never believed BLU would be allowed to reach level parity with other classes, and why I was not surprised to read this:
Game watch: Will BLUs catch up to level 80 during 5.x?
Yoshida: If we keep raising the level cap with that pace, us developers and players will all faint (bitter smile).

The primary problem is that for everyone who is a fan of Blue Mage in its current conception you now know you're not going to be getting a fully-fledged, content driven experience. It's a side-show only to be updated when and if they can squeeze in the time using pre-existing assets. There will be no alternate end-game or "solo" style FFXIV - Square cannot support it. Worse still, this problem is only amplified for each Limited Job they add because they will need their own content drips. Square already has issues with content droughts, so I am extremely dubious if they've been hiding the muscle to update and maintain two separate endgames. That's my primary concern with this entire fiasco. I can see the writing on the wall because this is nothing new, World of Warcraft long ago had the same issues with dividing up content and the "play your way" motto handed out like candy. The problem is a game cannot support all playstyles, and trying to do so just leaves certain game aspects content starved and anemic. FFXIV may have a predictable, and some may say "stale", style but I would take that over the frantic, over-eagerness, and lack of focus that has destroyed other games (Battle for Azeroth, Warhammer Online, Shadowbane, all of which I played at one point). BLU, in that regard, may just be the thin edge of the wedge.

[Arkdra]

So what exactly hinders them from going that way? Something which we thought about in that short amount of time while they had years to implement it..

Your jank job isn't worth the required effort to supply everything we are currently getting PLUS designing and balancing a specific group content loadout that is in all ways indistinguishable from any other magical ranged dps job. And also then coding in all the wacky subsystems you all keep describing as easy to implement when this is the same dev team that took 3 years or so to let us queue with chocobos out.

[Shougun]

That's my primary concern with this entire fiasco. I can see the writing on the wall because this is nothing new, World of Warcraft long ago had the same issues with dividing up content and the "play your way" motto handed out like candy. The problem is a game cannot support all playstyles, and trying to do so just leaves certain game aspects content starved and anemic.

Everything you said is absolut--- hah jk, :P it all makes sense lol. I am also dubious on them having three limited jobs each with interesting systems each being supported semi consistently (or other examples as you made, doesn't have to be "3 limited jobs"). And I think maybe you might see why I'm pushing for a duty finder option, in such case of the content drought for the side content. Although I also understand it's not "just that simple/easy" because of course as you said that means devoting forever to keeping Blue Mage balanced and up then.

But I really don't want to see Blue Mage die just because the side content isn't super popular or they have other side contents/limited jobs they want to do. So perhaps what I mean for blue mage and other jobs is:

• Create a system (like we see now for blue mage with spell acquisition) as a groundwork, perhaps add some fun side content for all players to enjoy (as we have for blue mage).
• Release it out and let people enjoy a fairly strong breadth of side content during the expansion drought (as they are).
• Then once the balls are rolling again make a strong beeline towards duty finder status for a few reasons. This doesn't mean dropping the side content but each blue mage update will have a strong bias towards adding the spells needed for duty finder, and increasing level cap.

First reason is that this way you can duty finder them sooner, rather than 4.5 blue mage introduced 6.1 blue mage duty finder its more like 4.5 introduced 5.2-.4 duty finder.

Second reason is that I agree that I don't think they can sustain many limited contents at once in a way that would satisfy players who like said content (if you love blue and want to see every patch have new blue content but now they're trying to also add puppet master and beast master, it's a bit harder). Or that it's not as popular so they just stop worrying about it. I would like to be clear and saying I'm not saying they can't update x because I'm their accountant or whatever lol and I would not be disappointed if they could do it all. If they can do it all then by all means do it because that's awesome!!! But that would make it seem money and time isn't a concern which wouldn't dissuade me from asking for blue duty then lol.

Third reason when you want to play blue mage and they can't keep the content pour strong (reason two based) you still have a whole job you can do regular new content. Content they will always ensure they work on (they can't just drop the normal content, that'd be a real riot). So even if they slow down on the side content blue mage still has the main content, blue mage like other jobs will never "die" then (I can absolutely see a limited job with no duty finder side die, because people didn't like it for whatever reason).

Now you may wonder what that would look like. So what I'd say is we start with a level cap of 50 right? During the drought we can add more spells but as we get to the expansion the number of spells focus down to what we'll need for duty finder (and the level cap increasing becomes a focus). They keep pushing that level cap till they've described the job in enough detail that they can release it to duty finder. If they can add more spells the better, the focus of development resources however is getting blue ready for the main stream. Such that say 5.1 they increase level cap add 2 spells, 5.2 again, 5.3 blue duty is finished with it's last two duty finder spells out. 5.3 patches on whatever interval on ward until level cap XYZ non-related to duty finder blue mage spells are released with occasional circus updates too (these spells can be from older content blue mage already level capped past).

Just so Blue Mages going back to old content don't rofl stomp a monster that has a new spell to learn they can give blue mages the ability to match their target in level (sync to target feature). "Mimic" spell or something.

So in a tl other words: I agree keeping many content drips going seems daunting (I'm not saying they can't), and I view allowing blue mage into current content as the perfect way to feed people who want blue while they sometimes are unable to keep the side content drip going (the people who /only/ want the side content will still get it as SE has time of course). But having the side content being a good drought breaker and side activity that isn't stressed too hard to update every patch. Such that you're not stuck with exclusively a dead side content job every few patches because the next Eureka took resources, then the next limited job, and oh you know what we decided all 2 of you who still play blue can wait.

Of course you could say "if they don't put work into duty finder side they can add more side content" but at least to me I think the likelyhood of blue being supported as side content 2 years from now with another limited job and all those systems (as you described) is low, while if they go into duty finder then long live blue mage.

[ReiMakoto]

Here is the bullet list of blue mage traits throughout the entire series:

1. Learns monster skills.
2. Is terrible and contributes nothing useful outside of a very tiny handful of outliers.

So if you are married to having a clown car full of bad abilities, you shouldn't be surprised that they won't let you take the clown car on the roads because you are a threat to others.

Blue mage is actually very strong, having a good set of abilities in many FF titles.

To name a few:
FFV: Mighty Guard, infusion and white wind made blue mage a support god at end game, and the situation skill like lvl flare and death were pretty good too, not to mention how powerful goblin punch and some of the "leveling" skills were like aeora
FFVII: Enemy skill materia is just OP. Beta, Trine, Aqualung, magic breath, shadowflare, and hell even matra magic at lower levels make it a must
Bravely Default: The Blu stand in vampire has some crazy good skills like firestorm and the -ja spells
FFXI: Generally just a very strong class

Blue has never been weak, just different.

[Alleo]

I just think it's hypocritical to be someone active on forums, reddit and other social media for years, claiming to have waited to "main BLU for 5 years", but either not doing some research on what was said about it, or dismissing it as "they said it but I don't believe it". Have they ever said something and did something else? Yes. But the opposite is also true. They already said things and did said things. So, thinking that BLU was going to be implemented as a regular job when they specifically stated otherwise is setting yourself up for dissapointment.

And thus because they have changed their opinion people that may have followed it still had hope that after all the years of not getting blue they are changing it. Honestly I believed that we wont ever get blue. (And no I am not one of those waiting for it for x years to main it, I just dont like the concept of limited jobs) And still just because they have done it this way does not mean that we are not allowed to voice an opinion on this either.

Of course its my thing to believe them or not but after seeing how they are using Eureka numbers (pure numbers) to say something is fun I see that they use numbers like they want to thus I have my doubt if that is really correct especially since the official forums are not 70/30 and even reddit was split on this.

I insist on this because carneval is imo the only true solo aspect of the job. We know now that Blue needs help in some content (I doubt that you can clear any higher dungeon or primal solo) thus its not truly a solo job at all. (IMO) The single player game aspect does come up because it was advertised as a solo job not good for party content thus people have pointed out that this is strange/bad for an MMO. And its their opinion. Its subjective, there is no right or wrong. It is a multiplayer game thus their opinion is not unreasonabl either.

In the end just because Yoshida on others view it in a certain way does not stop or hinder people from voicing their opinion. And if someone wanted to have a normal job and go into all content with it and they cant do that they are in their rights to write about this. Just as someone can voice their opinion and say that they like it this way.