BLU for Duty Finder and Raids! Show your support!

[Fyce]

-snip-

1. If you (general "you") say that you waited 5 years to main BLU (even if you didn't actually know how it would play in FFXIV), it means that: a) you participate on social media, forums, reddit, whatever, b) you really care and are passionate about the subject.
So, if now you come saying that you didn't actually inform yourself about what's being said about your "favourite job" in 5 years, then I absolutly cannot pity you. That's what I meant when I said that people don't "listen". You have people who are actively participating in the vocal part of the community acting surprised even when there was absolutly no reason for them to be. I'm not talking about those who don't participate or check anything. I'm talking about those who do, but somehow "missed" the information about something they really care about and were "waiting 5 years for it".
In short, if you claim to be caring a lot about something, the least you can do is inform yourself about it.

2. Would you question this "70% positive" number if it was "70% negative"? I know quite a bunch of people who wouldn't. Whatever the case, the "BLU debate" was pretty divisive. And while the "negative" side received more support from vocal people (as the vocal side always does), it clearly wasn't enought to push the balance. There has been a lot of other debates in the history of FFXIV that have been way more heated than that. So, if you want to say that the forums and reddit are a good indicator, well, what I'm taking from it is that most people simply don't care. Most BLU threads are already dead, and reddit didn't see a new popular thread about limited jobs or BLU in quite some time now. I do think it's quite plausible to think that most people are in a "as long as it's fun, it's fine" mindset.

3. If you think that nobody did bring the "this is an MMORPG, I don't want solo content!" argument, then I have to question your reading skills. I've argued against countless people using that already. This very thread has a bunch of good examples.

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Edit: for Shougun just below... As it's pretty much on the same topic and format.

I think it's fair for him to remind people that they do communicate on this kind of stuff. And that's not the first time he basically said "guys, I told you, but you kept asking for it so...". So, as I said, if someone cares enough, they should make the effort to inform themselves and raise their voice before it's too late. I mean, wouldn't you be a bit angry if you warn people about something for years, and then they act surprised when that thing finally happens and they are like "omg I didn't know!"? Putting aside people who dismiss what he said for... reasons (?).

Regarding the 70% thing, they didn't disclose what kind of audit they did. And I highly doubt that Yoshida himself knows the details. That'd be a question to ask to the community team, as they were the ones tasked with doing that. And if you actually do think that people's voice and feedback were being badly or wrongly reported, feel free to ask them. Probably in a dedicated thread or when they do their Q&A stuff.

As for the disappointment thing, well, it's indeed pretty subjective. And if it wasn't BLU, it would be something else, or impact other people. Anyway, it's now clear that they really didn't intent to implement BLU in FFXIV because of its quirks. No matter if people see that decision as valid or not. It's also hard not to say that BLU wasn't a good candidate for that kind of treatment. And if Limited Jobs are a way to see jobs that otherwise would never come to FFXIV, well, better accepting it and try to get the most out of that instead of staying bitter.

[Elerus]

2. Would you question this "70% positive" number if it was "70% negative"?

How disappointing. Let's take the exact quote:

"I got the community teams around the world to investigate players' reactions to BLU and over 70% of them were positive."

Now how can this be? Easy. You simply phrase the "investigation" to the players as such: "We are adding a new job for free in our upcoming patch! Blue Mage is slated to arrive in 4.5 and we want to know if you would be interested in more new job content like this?"

Of course the majority are going to answer "yes" to this. It's not Square lying, it's just phrasing the narrative in a way that's favorable to them. Frankly I'm shocked they only managed to get 70%.

Oh? What's that? "B-but Square-san wouldn't do that to me! They'd give a full, unbiased, non-slanted inquiry!"

OK. Let's take a look at the official site which lists the content for the upcoming patch updated just today. Here I'll even link it for you: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/patch/4_5/

Show me where it says Blue Mage is limited. Show me where it lists the downsides and costs of this new job's implementation. I'll answer for you: it doesn't. In fact the page proudly trumpets NEW JOB. Square is framing this in the way that is most favorable to them and honestly - why wouldn't they? They're a company and it's in their best interest to spin their PR to the positive in all circumstances. But to fall for this blatant marketing ploy is really naive. Please try harder in the future.

[BillyKaplan]

Frankly I'm shocked they only managed to get 70%.

Those 30% include those who either watched the fanfest or heard the news

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Those 30% include those who either watched the fanfest or heard the news

You mean people who can't manage their expectations?

[Alleo]

2. Would you question this "70% positive" number if it was "70% negative"? I know quite a bunch of people who wouldn't. Whatever the case, the "BLU debate" was pretty divisive. And while the "negative" side received more support from vocal people (as the vocal side always does), it clearly wasn't enought to push the balance. There has been a lot of other debates in the history of FFXIV that have been way more heated than that. So, if you want to say that the forums and reddit are a good indicator, well, what I'm taking from it is that most people simply don't care. Most BLU threads are already dead, and reddit didn't see a new popular thread about limited jobs or BLU in quite some time now. I do think it's quite plausible to think that most people are in a "as long as it's fun, it's fine" mindset.

3. If you think that nobody did bring the "this is an MMORPG, I don't want solo content!" argument, then I have to question your reading skills. I've argued against countless people using that already. This very thread has a bunch of good examples.

So people would need to read every single interview for the last few years to show that they care and are passionate? Not simply know of the job from older FF and were looking forward this as a normal job because there was no limited job before? Again, just because Yoshida states something in an interview does not mean that they wont do something else. They have stated quite a bit for housing (like timers would be bad and thus never happen..) and yet here we are with a lot of those things that they said that did not happen that way. When people point these interviews out I remember that quite a few posters stated that they are allowed to change their opinion. Yet suddenly with Blue its quite obvious that they stated it a certain way thus people are not allowed to be annoyed about it?

Yes I honestly would question a lot of numbers from them especially after things like Eureka and Diadem. Numbers without a way to check them, especially from companies are often just pure PR and I doubt that they would ever go around and say in an interview that the community was split on this.

My reading skills are fine. People are against the solo part when it involves the job not being able to play current content, I have never once in these discussions read that people dont want the carnival to happen..and that is probably the truest part of the "solo job" advertisement anyway..since you need other people to clear dungeons and primaes..(so its not even a true solo job anyway and can only be used in old content)

A few of the people I know that mentioned something like that you're responded to also laid out / referenced ways to fix these issues though - they havent (not all) simply left the issues where they lie. Some have been asking for the more extreme version but the people I see most frequently are not.


Issue 3: Blue Mage has to learn their skills they're all about learning skills.
Solution: .. ... Let them learn their skills, because of solution 1 we'll have no problem. In fact in the long run blue mage may be cheaper to maintain. Each job getting a quest every 5 levels (or more) that has to be made up in lore, scripted, and then translated into many languages meanwhile blue mage is taking assets already in the game and needs no job quest except if SE wants to add one just because.

Nice list.

Its funny because in the last liveletter they have stated that blue will still have the quests every 5 levels (if I am wrong about that please correct me) and need certain skills to do them...hmmm strange...sounds a bit like a normal job right? Honestly right now nothing really shows me why it had to be restricted. It has normal job quests which could have been used to give them the necessary skills for dungeons (and only unlock the dungeons if they have done them) and these skills from the quests could have been the ones that needed balance..thus blue has a rotation for instances that uses balanced monster skills that were still learned the blue way and outside of dungeons they can use the rest of the skills too. With that you have a blue for all content. Just force the learned quest skills into the bar when you are in a dungeon and problem solved. Since we already saw that they have changed the outcome of bad breath this could have easily be done with the quests skills too.

So what exactly hinders them from going that way? Something which we thought about in that short amount of time while they had years to implement it..

[Fyce]

So people would need to read every single interview for the last few years to show that they care and are passionate? Not simply know of the job from older FF and were looking forward this as a normal job because there was no limited job before? Again, just because Yoshida states something in an interview does not mean that they wont do something else. They have stated quite a bit for housing (like timers would be bad and thus never happen..) and yet here we are with a lot of those things that they said that did not happen that way. When people point these interviews out I remember that quite a few posters stated that they are allowed to change their opinion. Yet suddenly with Blue its quite obvious that they stated it a certain way thus people are not allowed to be annoyed about it?

I just think it's hypocritical to be someone active on forums, reddit and other social media for years, claiming to have waited to "main BLU for 5 years", but either not doing some research on what was said about it, or dismissing it as "they said it but I don't believe it". Have they ever said something and did something else? Yes. But the opposite is also true. They already said things and did said things. So, thinking that BLU was going to be implemented as a regular job when they specifically stated otherwise is setting yourself up for dissapointment.

Yes I honestly would question a lot of numbers from them especially after things like Eureka and Diadem. Numbers without a way to check them, especially from companies are often just pure PR and I doubt that they would ever go around and say in an interview that the community was split on this.

If you don't believe official numbers and think that they are lying, that's your own problem. If they are satisfied with the feedback they got for their game and its features, that's their business. The only thing you can do is complain and vote with your wallet if you are not satisfied. But you believing their numbers or not is really not something they care about I'm afraid.

My reading skills are fine. People are against the solo part when it involves the job not being able to play current content, I have never once in these discussions read that people dont want the carnival to happen..and that is probably the truest part of the "solo job" advertisement anyway..since you need other people to clear dungeons and primaes..(so its not even a true solo job anyway and can only be used in old content)

Why do you insist on making this about people asking to remove the Carnivale? This is absolutly not what I said, and I hoped that my previous answer would put you back on track, but it apparently didn't. My point was about people using the "this is not a single player game, this is a MMORPG" argument to refuse Limited BLU.
So if that strawman could stop, it'd be great, thank you.

[Alleo]

I just think it's hypocritical to be someone active on forums, reddit and other social media for years, claiming to have waited to "main BLU for 5 years", but either not doing some research on what was said about it, or dismissing it as "they said it but I don't believe it". Have they ever said something and did something else? Yes. But the opposite is also true. They already said things and did said things. So, thinking that BLU was going to be implemented as a regular job when they specifically stated otherwise is setting yourself up for dissapointment.

And thus because they have changed their opinion people that may have followed it still had hope that after all the years of not getting blue they are changing it. Honestly I believed that we wont ever get blue. (And no I am not one of those waiting for it for x years to main it, I just dont like the concept of limited jobs) And still just because they have done it this way does not mean that we are not allowed to voice an opinion on this either.

Of course its my thing to believe them or not but after seeing how they are using Eureka numbers (pure numbers) to say something is fun I see that they use numbers like they want to thus I have my doubt if that is really correct especially since the official forums are not 70/30 and even reddit was split on this.

I insist on this because carneval is imo the only true solo aspect of the job. We know now that Blue needs help in some content (I doubt that you can clear any higher dungeon or primal solo) thus its not truly a solo job at all. (IMO) The single player game aspect does come up because it was advertised as a solo job not good for party content thus people have pointed out that this is strange/bad for an MMO. And its their opinion. Its subjective, there is no right or wrong. It is a multiplayer game thus their opinion is not unreasonabl either.

In the end just because Yoshida on others view it in a certain way does not stop or hinder people from voicing their opinion. And if someone wanted to have a normal job and go into all content with it and they cant do that they are in their rights to write about this. Just as someone can voice their opinion and say that they like it this way.

[Fyce]

-snip-

Again, if people got their hopes up by assuming that SE would change their mind simply because they already did a few times, that's their own fault. SE never hyped anyone about making BLU a regular job. Quite the opposite, in fact. So if some people thought that they were going to do the opposite, that's on them, not on SE.
If I change my mind about what I want to eat today, does it mean that I'll paint the door in red when I said that I was going to paint it in green? No. And assuming that would be ridiculous. Stop trying to find people some lame excuses because they got their hopes crushed after hyping themselves over the complete opposite of what they were told.

Regarding the 70/30, they already said that they didn't only listen to the vocal minority. I don't have anything to tell you on the matter, and I'm not here to debunk any conspiration theory of whatever. I was just quoting an official number given by the game's director. Do whatever you want with it, I don't really care.

For the Carnival: good for you to insist on it. But it wasn't my point. That's all I'm saying. Feel free to argue with anyone else about the issues you think are important. But not with me, as I didn't bring it up at all. I just said that Yoshida gave an answer to these "this is an MMO! REEEEE!" silly arguments. If you want to use strawmans or move goalposts, do as you wish, but don't expect me to follow.

As for the end, of course, people are free to express themselves. I never said otherwise. But on that point, I have to remind people that they are not entitled to anything, and that saying stuff like "SE is just lazy" while showing a clear lack of any game design knowledge doesn't help anything or anyone. And it's also not because they voice their minds that SE has to respond or change anything. It seems that people can't accept that. The same people saying "this is a waste of ressources, delete". There's a difference in providing constructive criticism and acting like a spoiled child.

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Edit: Just to be clear, I'm done with this back and forth. I don't see it bringing anything worth debating over. That's basically the third time I'm repeating what I already said. It's going a bit too much in circles to my tastes. Feel free to answer one more time if you want the last word though, I'd gladly give it to you.

[ReiMakoto]

Snip

Just to take a few points you made:

Your changing your mind on what to eat analogy doesn't quite apply, its more of a case of, if I change my mind on whether to paint my door red or green based on what other people said about it, it would be reasonable to assume you could get me to change my mind on what colour to paint my shed. Just because those old interview exists, it doesn't mean its peoples fault to get upset when they do what they said. Its like with article 13 in the EU atm, the EU said they wanted it their way, people responded with no we want it our way, then they carried on doing it their way anyway, is it then the peoples fault for expecting them to change their mind and getting their hopes up?

On the 70/30 split, who are you to decide what the vocal minority is, judging by reddit and the OF it honestly does not seem 70/30, a 50/50 would see more reasonable to me at best, so SE should source where they are getting this from, saying its the official number and reporting it as fact or "Don't really care" is a dangerous precedent to set.

Belittling the other argument by saying "This is an mmo, REE!", calling it silly and the other name calling you do the other side is also poor argumentation, there's a difference between constructive criticism and being and acting like an ass.

[Arkdra]

On the 70/30 split, who are you to decide what the vocal minority is, judging by reddit and the OF it honestly does not seem 70/30, a 50/50 would see more reasonable to me at best, so SE should source where they are getting this from, saying its the official number and reporting it as fact or "Don't really care" is a dangerous precedent to set.

There's maybe 100-150 unique posters in this 69 (Nice.) page long thread. The angry thread on Reddit was off the front page by the 2nd day. My worthless anecdotal evidence is that everyone I have explained the blu job to think it sounds cool as hell and whenever it's come up in fc chat the ratio of people who think it sounds cool vs. people disappointed they can't main blu is 10:1. I've gotten literally 0 pushback from anyone on the concept of limited jobs itself, just some disappointed blu fans mad it happened to them.

Frankly, if I had my way, all new jobs from here on would be limited.