BLU for Duty Finder and Raids! Show your support!

[Liale]

The live letter was interesting in that they said they didn't want blue going into raids and not having specific spells that they might need, and yet the job class quests require you to learn specific spells. Also interesting that they used the death on boss excuse and yet in the live letter they pointed out how mobs will be resistant to certain spells. So their whole excuse for why it can't be a proper job boils down to them just not wanting to make it one.

[jon041065]

So their whole excuse for why it can't be a proper job boils down to them just not wanting to make it one.

This seems to be the case which makes it similar to the devs making what they wanted and we got 2.0 SMN and bow mage. Enough people asked for those to be changed and changes were made after some time. This situation just has extra side content into the mix that hopefully won't be removed.

Well, I guess at this point the purist from earlier should be decrying both these decisions because according to the their own arguments we are not getting Blue Mage after all. The class fantasy has been destroyed. Square has not only given us a "watered own" version of Blue Mage but they've hamstrung the job by keeping it limited.

It's either that or we'll see some massive goal post shifting and at that point we'll know it was disingenuous from the start.

These things are happening but I've seen at least one "blu purist" that is doing neither. This is the same person I said in an earlier post that at least tried to ask and understand how some of us can view it differently. So, to their credit, they are being pretty mature in the way they are handling that they weren't correct with how some blue spells in 14 would turn out.

[Fyce]

The live letter was interesting in that they said they didn't want blue going into raids and not having specific spells that they might need, and yet the job class quests require you to learn specific spells. Also interesting that they used the death on boss excuse and yet in the live letter they pointed out how mobs will be resistant to certain spells. So their whole excuse for why it can't be a proper job boils down to them just not wanting to make it one.

Unlike what they did for a lot of jobs up until this point, this time they wanted to keep the iconic kind of toolkit Blue Magic had to offer in previous titles. This toolkit doesn't correspond to the strict design space and balance that is imposed on regular jobs. So, in order to do that, they created a new type of jobs: limited jobs.

But you're right. It's not about them being able or unable to make heavy changes to that toolkit in order to fit the mold. It's about their decision not to. And while some of the reasons they provided are weak, anyone with a little bit of game design knowledge would be able to understand why they took this decision, and what goal they wanted to achieve.

Now, being able to understand and accept the repercussions of this decision or not is a subjective matter. Which is why some people are fine with it, while some others are not.

Regardless, it's indeed true to say that it was ultimately their decision regarding their creative freedom on their game. Just like what they do for countless other things.

[BillyKaplan]

This situation just has extra side content into the mix that hopefully won't be removed.

If Diadem is still in the game, I think the Masked Carnival is safe.

Unlike what they did for a lot of jobs up until this point, this time they wanted to keep the iconic kind of toolkit Blue Magic had to offer in previous titles. This toolkit doesn't correspond to the strict design space and balance that is imposed on regular jobs. So, in order to do that, they created a new type of jobs: limited jobs.

But they could've given BLU all of that and still made them an unlimited job by giving them a parallel skillset, like they do for PvP for all jobs. They already implemented a lot of things we asked for, like locking content behind skill acquisition instead of level, and saying we'd need to divise a rotation using the skills we have (and mind you, just because BLMs have Enochian and Fire IV doesn't mean we don't see BLMs spamming Blizzard in 60+ content, so their concern for BLU specifically is again laughable). BLU is already halfway to the hybrid job many of us want it to be, they just don't go the rest of the way and they have repeatedly failed in supplying good reasons, least of all ones that weren't contradicted or fell apart the next time they talked about BLU.

anyone with a little bit of game design knowledge would be able to understand why they took this decision, and what goal they wanted to achieve.

Hi, software engineer with background in game design and over a decade of experience under my belt here. No, I don't get it. Feel free to share with the rest of the class. Because right now the only reason I see to this current design, without them saying this is a beta/testing phase, is laziness.

[Fyce]

But they could've given BLU all of that and still made them an unlimited job by giving them a parallel skillset, like they do for PvP for all jobs. They already implemented a lot of things we asked for, like locking content behind skill acquisition instead of level, and saying we'd need to divise a rotation using the skills we have (and mind you, just because BLMs have Enochian and Fire IV doesn't mean we don't see BLMs spamming Blizzard in 60+ content, so their concern for BLU specifically is again laughable). BLU is already halfway to the hybrid job many of us want it to be, they just don't go the rest of the way and they have repeatedly failed in supplying good reasons, least of all ones that weren't contradicted or fell apart the next time they talked about BLU.

I feel like you didn't even read my post. You simply saw my name and tried to argue against me without even understanding what I was saying. Because I already said that it wasn't about them being able to do it or not a way or another. Could have they came up with a concept for a regular job Blue Mage? Yes. They simply chose another route.
I have literally no idea why you went on about "they could have done it if they did this and that!". The theorical possibility of doing it is something I never argued against. (What I often argue against are the bad and flawed ideas and suggestions people throw on the table as if they were perfect. But that's another story.)

And I also conceeded that some of their justifications are indeed weak. No need to repeat to me what I already said.

Hi, software engineer with background in game design and over a decade of experience under my belt here. No, I don't get it. Feel free to share with the rest of the class. Because right now the only reason I see to this current design, without them saying this is a beta/testing phase, is laziness.

You don't understand what kind of creative freedom for a low investment in balance does limited jobs provide? If you don't get what are the benefits of not having to make a job fit into the very narrow space that the current regular job balance requires, then you are literally asking me how are jobs balanced in this game and why is it restrictive to the point that it made Square Enix, the very creators of this game and the Final Fantasy franchise, felt that it was a good idea to take a different approach for one job that has been consistantly playing with weirdness and the boundaries of the game design space in previous titles.
And that's something I shouldn't have to explain to someone claiming to have a background in game design. Which is why I actually don't believe that you don't understand. I suspect that you are just so frustrated that you don't want to understand. Also -despite your claims regarding your experience- you act like ressources are infinite, and that they "could do it" without considering one second that investing in making Blue Mage "DF ready" is simply not something they determined to be worthwhile.

In short, "just make an entirely new set of skills balanced like all the other jobs so I can do my daily roulettes!" is something people often say lately, without understanding what would be necessary for it to happen.

I'm sorry that you don't understand the game design benefits of limited jobs. I'm also sorry that you don't understand the underlying consequences of what you are asking. Especially since you claimed to have a background in game design. And finally, I have to give you an apology. When I said that "anyone with a little bit of game design knowledge would be able to understand", it was implied that what was needed was a "little bit of good game design knowledge". Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.
Regardless, "I don't understand why they did that, so I'll simply say that they are lazy" is not the mark of a good game designer. At least, you never claimed to be one. That being said, if you think that you are, feel free to send them your resume.

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Tl;dr: Would it be nice if BLU was somehow DF and raid ready? Sure. But it's not, and the reasons why are obvious. Sorry if you don't understand them.

[BillyKaplan]

Sorry if you don't understand them.

Disagreeing with something does not mean I don't understand it. Would be nice if you understood that.
As I said before, they've already gone halfway to what most of us are asking for, and with weak justification as to not go the rest of the way. They can keep their precious creative freedom in the Masked Carnival. So far, their hiding behind excuses to not let BLU be in regular gameplay only implies a lack of creativity since they can't seem to find a way to balance both sides, despite, again, already going halfway there, and many of us handing them solutions on a silver platter.

[Fyce]

Disagreeing with something does not mean I don't understand it. Would be nice if you understood that.

Hi, software engineer with background in game design and over a decade of experience under my belt here. No, I don't get it. Feel free to share with the rest of the class. Because right now the only reason I see to this current design, without them saying this is a beta/testing phase, is laziness.

Dude...
*sigh*

[Arkdra]

Hi, software engineer with background in game design and over a decade of experience under my belt here. No, I don't get it. Feel free to share with the rest of the class. Because right now the only reason I see to this current design, without them saying this is a beta/testing phase, is laziness.

Laziness is 100% a valid reason.

Or more specifically, currently blu, at least as it has been presented to the public, seems to largely be the work of one guy as a pet project, which is why it's some goofball side progression. If it were a normal job, that one guy wouldn't be the only one involved, everyone else on the usual team that does this sort of thing would have to work on it to make sure that it's balanced and fits the mold. This team is already going to be working on all the new ShB abilities, and the ability reorganization, and the other 2 (cooler by default because blu is lame and boring) jobs. Fitting a third job into that is almost assuredly too resource intensive (see previous difficulty with 3 jobs in hw).

You are, of course, free to think they should have done... whatever they needed to do to get blu in as a real job. Whether that's cut one of the other jobs, or hire more people, or delay the launch of ShB. But for me, given the choice between what we are getting and any of the above, (minus hire more people, maybe) I would definitely take what we are currently getting.

But only if not adding a crap job like blu isn't an option because that would have been the best thing to do.

[jon041065]

Laziness is 100% a valid reason.

Or more specifically, currently blu, at least as it has been presented to the public, seems to largely be the work of one guy as a pet project, which is why it's some goofball side progression. If it were a normal job, that one guy wouldn't be the only one involved, everyone else on the usual team that does this sort of thing would have to work on it to make sure that it's balanced and fits the mold. This team is already going to be working on all the new ShB abilities, and the ability reorganization, and the other 2 (cooler by default because blu is lame and boring) jobs. Fitting a third job into that is almost assuredly too resource intensive (see previous difficulty with 3 jobs in hw).

You are, of course, free to think they should have done... whatever they needed to do to get blu in as a real job. Whether that's cut one of the other jobs, or hire more people, or delay the launch of ShB. But for me, given the choice between what we are getting and any of the above, (minus hire more people, maybe) I would definitely take what we are currently getting.

But only if not adding a crap job like blu isn't an option because that would have been the best thing to do.

It's this way because this is how Yoshi P said he saw it working in the game years ago. It's similar to how he thought 2.0 SMN and bow mage would be received well. So there's a chance to get a unlimited BLU if enough push for it.

They probably could do three jobs in an expac and you have to remember that NIN came out not long before 3.0 so they were pretty much working on three jobs and finishing a forth at the time of the NIN patch. I think the gunblade job, second job, and an unlimited BLU would have been possible.

Your opinion BLU is lame and that's fine but can't really say it's lame compared to the second( and third?) job of Shadowbringers since we have honestly no clue what it will be. Just speculation. Unless you think BLU is that boring. /shrug

Ideally, they could have put out a full standard BLU along with the side content Carnival but most would have accepted if BLU came capped at level 50 still and was raised slowly before the 5.0 launch or at least during that expac's patches IF we knew it would be able to do all the content that combat jobs can do. Now those of us that want unlimited BLU have to hope for a chance that 6.0 will be when we can main the job in the content that matters the most to us.

[MrKimper]

Well, after being banned for what I can only assume was being reported for harassment(Or maybe spamming) this will probably be my last post on these forums or on the topic of BLU.

I now marginally agree with where they're going with BLU. The fact that you can and actually benefit from teaming up with other BLU's is to me a huge boon and a much needed mechanic, along with mighty guard giving it it's own tanking stance.

While I still agree that limited jobs as an idea are bad and should not continue, I am at the very least more optimistic for BLU on release. That being said I do not think they will change this BLU or that we're ever getting unlimited BLU, it just doesn't look like Yoshi has any intention of it with this BLU's design.

The final nail in the coffin for regular BLU being to me, the changing of the damage from weapon damage to armor. It's quite clear they fully intend to have BLU be it's own separate content for the foreseeable future and I think that no amount of rattling will change that or their minds.

It's quite obvious they don't intend to let BLU mingle with other jobs. I may be wrong, but that's my interpretation, either way I'm disappointed but not nearly as much as I was before, being able to do four player BLU parties and not have to wait for everyone to get one single skill is a huge weight off.

Edit: Also I believe the limited job system is bad by itself, if it's functions were added to current jobs(Solo content that gives other jobs a reason to go into lower level instances say hunting dragons as a DRG in a QTE or a fighting game-esque MNK tournament) it would be much much MUCH better, as well as a name change. Please.