SE, the concept of "Limited Jobs" is a really bad idea, turn back now

[jon041065]

A quick google search will show that XIV has over 10 million subscribers. You are also wrong that SE needs XIV to survive. Contrary to popular beliefs, SE is doing just fine, at least financially. It's a lot more debatable when it comes to image. Anyway...XIV is a cash cow for them, but they can live without XIV.

As for catering to what audience: I'd leave that to SE over any random commentator. Especially since, you know, they actually have the numbers and data of the player base and have more knowledge on what people want.

I feel bad for the people who fantasize of maining BLU, but they really had almost no chance of getting to that. Agree with their reasoning or not, they weren't going to add it as a typical battle job. I get the feeling that a lot of people would be happier with Yoshi-P vaguely mentioning that they're thinking about BLU at the end of every expansion as oppose to this version. Oh well...what can you do? I'm just waiting to see how this all works out.

You do know that when SE puts out that 10mil figure number that they are counting ALL accounts that have ever paid for even 1 month of game time right?

XIV did pull SE out of the red with the 2.0 launch. I don't know if it's overtaken XI as the most profitable FF game to date just yet but the game is a large source of their revenue that's probably only beaten by their mobile department.

I'm pretty sure I said that jobs shouldn't cater to any one player group. Doubled checked. Yep, I said jobs should be for everyone and then you take your favorite job into the content of your choice.

No chance of getting blu as a real combat job? Yoshi said they wouldn't be able to add rdm. They do a pretty good job overall with the game but they definitely miss with some things. Diadem, bow mage, 2.0 smn etc. Their minds can be changed and a lot on our side believes there can be great solo content WITHOUT limited jobs.

Because I am.

I actually want BLU as it has been presented.

I want it to be solo content.

I want something different from the "here's a standard cookie cutter job, nerfed to high hell so it will fit with the balance of the rest of the jobs" that we've had.

I actually want this limited job.

That's why it looks like I'm defending it.

Because I am.

But I also know that no matter WHAT they do, they will never get 100% satisfaction from the playerbase.

Christ, if even they gave us BOTH versions, people would still cry "It should be either/or, not both" because that's just how people are.

So you said that SE needs to make the class that fits FFXIV and not a small percentage of the playerbase but then say that's what you want. Ummm.....okay. I'm not denying there are people that want more solo content and I'm one of them but I seriously doubt more than half the playerbase is asking for a job to be designed with solo play as its focus.

Good thing a lot on our side are saying to leave the solo content alone but to give blu the ability to be used in the full game. You and me can then have what we both want. Unless you're one of the people that would still cry "It should be either/or, not both". I'm also tired of this "us vs them" and zero-sum view point.

[Auryan]

You do know that when SE puts out that 10mil figure number that they are counting ALL accounts that have ever paid for even 1 month of game time right?

Then the word you're looking for is "active" subscribers. You were dead wrong when you said FFXIV has a max of a million subscribers. When they do in fact have a lot more than that. But semantics aside...

And like I said earlier, that's too bad but you didn't have a realistic chance of doing that endgame content with BLU anyway. Without this limited job system they weren't even going to bother adding BLU at all. Popular job or not.

Meh, they're minds will only be changed when BLU actually premieres and how the base reacts to it. If it's hit, they plan on supporting it and adding new jobs under this new family of jobs. However, if it's universally disliked than I think it will follow the usual pattern of content like Diadem and Eureka. It will be improved upon and if it's still negative, overhaul it. I just don't see this realistically happening though. But I am repeatedly wrong, so who knows?

And I like to point out that your constant 'us vs them' mentality is very off-putting. "Our side", "your side", etc. At the very least it comes off as combative when we're just discussing a job introduction. Nothing actually serious.

[jon041065]

Then the word you're looking for is "active" subscribers. You were dead wrong when you said FFXIV has a max of a million subscribers. When they do in fact have a lot more than that. But semantics aside...

And like I said earlier, that's too bad but you didn't have a realistic chance of doing that endgame content with BLU anyway. Without this limited job system they weren't even going to bother adding BLU at all. Popular job or not.

Meh, they're minds will only be changed when BLU actually premieres and how the base reacts to it. If it's hit, they plan on supporting it and adding new jobs under this new family of jobs. However, if it's universally disliked than I think it will follow the usual pattern of content like Diadem and Eureka. It will be improved upon and if it's still negative, overhaul it. I just don't see this realistically happening though. But I am repeatedly wrong, so who knows?

And I like to point out that your constant 'us vs them' mentality is very off-putting. "Our side", "your side", etc. At the very least it comes off as combative when we're just discussing a job introduction. Nothing actually serious.

Sure I could have said active but also I never said it maxes out at one million. Since SE doesn't release the active subs for each quarter, people have tried to use the Lodestone to get close and usually an average of around 800k to slightly over a million. Believe it was close to two million with the 4.0 launch. The constant "every month subscriber" count isn't crazy high and Yoshi P has said he's fine with people taking breaks and coming back for new patches/expacs.

Didn't have a realistic chance of doing endgame as blu? After Yoshi P saying that rdm would not work in the game and then them adding the job we started to think blu could definitely follow. Then there was an interview that came out a week or two after the 4.0 launch and Yoshi P was asked about future jobs and talked about how he wants to make a unique 14 job but also said that blu was highly requested. It was pretty reasonable for players to believe that blu would function in the full game if it were to be added.

Go check my other posts. I've been saying for weeks that I think that what both groups want is possible and I wish we could have a unified message to SE stating that. There's toxicity in both camps but I have not seen many from the "pro limited jobs" side say they are fine with SE working on a way for blu to work in the full game as long as they still got to have the Carnival and solo ability of blu.

If Squeenix comes up in the future with a limited tank, limited healer and another limited dps, they could make a 4 men version of the Masked Carnivale, or other forms of group content for limited jobs, expanding the solo aspect (as right now, it is solo play because well... there's only BLU). I think the possibility would be pretty awesome and give that something new many are lamenting its lacking in the usual formula. But if everyone cries for no limited jobs DELETE NOW, this possibility for new content won't ever see the tiniest of light. And that is quite sad imo

Change that to "content that you can do solo or low man" without the limited job concepts so that ALL combat jobs could participate and you would have a lot more people on board. There are people that are saying no to limited jobs period and there are others like myself saying no to THIS version. And it would be sad if there was no more solo content like the Carnival made after this experiment due to the backlash which is why many of us have said that we support the content but not at this cost. I want to see the two camps come together and say that we do want this type of content (or at least not against it) AND it not be at the cost of what the other side wants. Jobs that can work in the full game and there being solo side content like the Carnival if you choose to play that content.

[Auryan]

Didn't have a realistic chance of doing endgame as blu? After Yoshi P saying that rdm would not work in the game and then them adding the job we started to think blu could definitely follow. Then there was an interview that came out a week or two after the 4.0 launch and Yoshi P was asked about future jobs and talked about how he wants to make a unique 14 job but also said that blu was highly requested. It was pretty reasonable for players to believe that blu would function in the full game if it were to be added.

Go check my other posts. I've been saying for weeks that I think that what both groups want is possible and I wish we could have a unified message to SE stating that. There's toxicity in both camps but I have not seen many from the "pro limited jobs" side say they are fine with SE working on a way for blu to work in the full game as long as they still got to have the Carnival and solo ability of blu.


Change that to "content that you can do solo or low man" without the limited job concepts so that ALL combat jobs could participate and you would have a lot more people on board. There are people that are saying no to limited jobs period and there are others like myself saying no to THIS version. And it would be sad if there was no more solo content like the Carnival made after this experiment due to the backlash which is why many of us have said that we support the content but not at this cost. I want to see the two camps come together and say that we do want this type of content (or at least not against it) AND it not be at the cost of what the other side wants. Jobs that can work in the full game and there being solo side content like the Carnival if you choose to play that content.

Marketing talk, plain and simple. BLU is a highly requested job. Who would purposely say, "You know what? The job a lot of people want is just never coming in, ever! Too bad for you, suckers! Pay me now." Aside from mustache twirling cartoon villains, no one. He wanted to be hopeful, but vague. In other interviews he also stated that he just didn't see how he could fit BLU into XIV's mold. He was honest too, seeing as BLU wasn't added two expansions later despite being popular. Until now, in a way that is unlike the other jobs, just like he said.

And I'm sure you've heard this before, but a solo and party mode for BLU is essentially two entirely different jobs. It's not just about curating "party friendly" monster spells, when it's actually the fact that these spells are still overpowered, are completely independent of each other and that BLU has no rotation or a gimmick (besides learning skills) at all. They would have to craft an entire list of "balanced" spells, weave them into a rotation and keep it constantly balanced. On top of that, they have to keep the actual BLU updated with new content. That's a lot of work for just one job. And then the subject changes to: why bother at all?

[jon041065]

Marketing talk, plain and simple. BLU is a highly requested job. Who would purposely say, "You know what? The job a lot of people want is just never coming in, ever! Too bad for you, suckers! Pay me now." Aside from mustache twirling cartoon villains, no one. He wanted to be hopeful, but vague. In other interviews he also stated that he just didn't see how he could fit BLU into XIV's mold. He was honest too, seeing as BLU wasn't added two expansions later despite being popular. Until now, in a way that is unlike the other jobs, just like he said.

And I'm sure you've heard this before, but a solo and party mode for BLU is essentially two entirely different jobs. It's not just about curating "party friendly" monster spells, when it's actually the fact that these spells are still overpowered, are completely independent of each other and that BLU has no rotation or a gimmick (besides learning skills) at all. They would have to craft an entire list of "balanced" spells, weave them into a rotation and keep it constantly balanced. On top of that, they have to keep the actual BLU updated with new content. That's a lot of work for just one job. And then the subject changes to: why bother at all?

He said the same with rdm. That he wasn't sure if they could make the "jack of all trades" traditional FF job fit within the trinity and they eventually did it.

Also, I've never said to just leave blu as it is and lift the restrictions. That's why I've been saying it will take probably to 6.0 for SE to make blu work in the full game. They already have most of Shadowbringers planned out (inlcuding the blu content) so IF they did listen to the backlash, adding what we are asking for would most likely have to be part of the following expansion.

If they are adding more jobs with 6.0, then why can't the resources and time spent making one of those new jobs be put towards making blu available for the full game? Not everyone would want that just as not everyone would want Geomancer, or Beast Master, or Puppet Master. All we can do is request what future jobs we would like to see. A lot of us would like to see Blue Mage as a DoW/M even if there is "Blue Mage the limited job". Yoshi P said he kept being asked to add blue mage but the limited job version doesn't satisfy a lot of us that were asking for the job. He will still be getting requests for the job as a version that can be a main job.

Our side would agree that it is a lot of work to keep updating the Carnival constantly. Some are against the content entirely for that reason while myself and others want to see repurposed to be something with freelancer/onion knight/mimic. Like SE still do what they have announced but for 6.0 they change the limited job's name to Freelancer. Then add in some traits and abilities from all jobs to have a bigger scope of build making than just "enemy abilities". It could have a "Mimicry" ability to just straight up play as one of the other jobs. Or just call the limited job Mimic. It would still take a lot of time and resources but rather it be towards something that can be built up instead of separate content for every potential limited job. That just results in content across the board becoming more shallow as resources become more and more spread thin.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ue-Limited-Job

[Auryan]

He said the same with rdm. That he wasn't sure if they could make the "jack of all trades" traditional FF job fit within the trinity and they eventually did it.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ue-Limited-Job

Yeah, they sure nailed RDM alright. Sarcasm aside, I really don't like what they did with RDM. I think it's the most boring of the three casters and had to lose too much to get here. And if that is how they planned on handling BLU, please...no.

[Dualgunner]

Yeah, they sure nailed RDM alright. Sarcasm aside, I really don't like what they did with RDM. I think it's the most boring of the three casters and had to lose too much to get here. And if that is how they planned on handling BLU, please...no.

IMO, RDM is a great job that is simplistic to pick up, with a good amount of nuance beneath the hood. Within FFXIV's world, where BLM is the elements of fire, thunder; and ice and WHM is the elements of water, earth, and air; RDM can use fire, thunder, earth, and air. Amidst all this, the casting of magic charges their sword to deal magical thrusts. It meets my fantasy of a spellblade, and is a jack of Black Magic, White Magic, and melee combat, but a master of none; it uses a combination of its three arts to grant it power on par with masters of any of the aforementioned elements.

That's the imagination I was hoping for with BLU; I don't care about Final Fantasy so much as I care about FFXIV. If I wanted FFV's BLU, I'd boot up FFV, as it were. If I wanted FFXI's BLU, I'd boot up FFXI.

[Nabril]

You do know that when SE puts out that 10mil figure number that they are counting ALL accounts that have ever paid for even 1 month of game time right?

XIV did pull SE out of the red with the 2.0 launch. I don't know if it's overtaken XI as the most profitable FF game to date just yet but the game is a large source of their revenue that's probably only beaten by their mobile department.

I'm pretty sure I said that jobs shouldn't cater to any one player group. Doubled checked. Yep, I said jobs should be for everyone and then you take your favorite job into the content of your choice.

So what you're saying is that they shouldn't tailor jobs that cater to any player group you're not a part of. There's no way they can please everyone, but as long as you're happy, we're good, right? Some of us want BLU to be as it is. I am one of those people.

[jon041065]

So what you're saying is that they shouldn't tailor jobs that cater to any player group you're not a part of. There's no way they can please everyone, but as long as you're happy, we're good, right? Some of us want BLU to be as it is. I am one of those people.

Good jobs putting words in my mouth. I've been saying for weeks now that jobs should be for everyone and that I want to see most players get the type of content they want but not at the cost of what others want. I think this type of content is possible without limited jobs.

Here's another post from Blueye that nicely states that view as well.

I prefer to not think of it as two sides that are in opposition to each other, even if that is the harsh reality of the situation. I would prefer to see players working together on this.

If I had to state my stance, it's in opposition to Limited Jobs, but I say that because I believe just about everything there is to like about Limited Jobs, such as an emphasis on solo capability, a new solo instance, a unique way to acquire actions, and branching beyond the established cookie-cutter formula, all of that can coexist alongside a job that is balanced for end game. That is what I believe. I won't argue that balancing a job like that would be easy, but I don't regard it as an impossible task.

So that is my stance. For those that like Limited Jobs, I don't want the good things about it to be taken away. I just want those who wish to see Blue Mage as a balanced job that can access all content to get what they want too. It won't be an easy feat. It's not a goal that can be achieved in the near future, but it's what we should strive for.

I see where you're coming from. It all comes down on how we see the job. My idea of RDM was always a supporter job. RDM were decent healers, damage dealers and buffers. They were decent at everything, but didn't excel at anything. It's nice how they managed to work black and white magic into XIV RDM, but it all relates to damage dealing. The only supporting abilities it got was one group buff, a mediocre heal and raise. It's great that people like it, but it wasn't my fantasy job come to reality like how you see it. If it was my choice, I'd rather it be XIV's first support role job, but I admit, that would've needed much more accommodation to accomplish.

You read my post of how I would like to see a talent system in 14. Would you prefer that instead of limited jobs? And if so, why not help us push for that instead of limited jobs?

I feel like there are people on our side that are like "Why cant we meet in the middle? Let's be together because we agree on the end goal so let's show that instead of risking SE seeing all this division and believing it's not worth trying."

[Auryan]

You read my post of how I would like to see a talent system in 14. Would you prefer that instead of limited jobs? And if so, why not help us push for that instead of limited jobs?

I feel like there are people on our side that are like "Why cant we meet in the middle? Let's be together because we agree on the end goal so let's show that instead of risking SE seeing all this division and believing it's not worth trying."

It's better than the current situation, sure. However, I don't think a talent tree is enough for a job like BLU. My opinion is that BLU shouldn't be like WoW's Druid class, but rather a hybrid job. I see BLU as being a DPS/Support, DPS/Heal or DPS/Tank if given the right setup. I really don't know the plan for the limited job system. I would have to see what they plan for 5.0 and onward to see if it the trade-off for BLU was worth it.