Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

[KaivaC]

Yup, I always target the mt and toss it onto them about 5 seconds before the pull if we get a countdown, or when they instapull, I'll throw it on them and then start my opener. I always make sure that it goes on cooldown and that the correct tank has the Shade icon.

[Jollyy5]

Hmm..

I'm going to assume they used it on the tank, there's just no point putting it on anyone else. I'm also assuming that if Diversion was used during Shade, it wouldn't generate much aggro on the tank, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case and that the tank was just being bad.

If a DPS uses all their enmity mitigation tools, then it's always the tank's fault for losing aggro. This often happens because the tank isn't well geared and is trying to have 100% up time on their DPS stance, made worse by the OT neglecting to Shirk.

[Mesarthim]

Expecting other roles to manage aggro just so they can stay out of tank stance and dps is not actually in anyone's job description. Is actually what I said. If you can stay in DPS stance and keep enmity then I've got no argument. If you can't, then you can adjust by going back into tank stance or enmity combos or... whatever. Aggro dumping is for when there's some reason why the tank has lost aggro and you're suddenly about to be Enemy Number One. It's not something you should be having to hit every time it's off CD while your tank is whaling away in Defiance or Blood Sword (unless you've got a party that's prepared for that--I know you need all the DPS you can get in high-end). I'm tired of this thing going around where you're suddenly a crappy tank if you can't stay in DPS mode or if you use enmity combos. It's making inexperienced tanks do really stupid things because that's what they think is expected.

Aggro dumping is a stop-gap to not dying. It is not there to empower tanks. If a tank is struggling, then yes, the party needs to adjust. But if that tank is struggling to live up to the hype instead of doing their job, well... My enmity skills (or skill, depending on the job) are essentially for ME, and have a long cool-down. Good luck.

I don't recall seeing this mystical statement of telling inexperienced tanks to do stupid things. You said it not me. Aggro dumping is PROPER play. Over time properly geared dps will creep up on the aggro of tanks and you're telling me you can't be bothered to push one button instead of forcing the tank to lower their damage for you? I've had tanks in deltascape that couldn't hold aggro even in shield oath (granted this is the kind of player that can't be taught, never talked or worked with party). Tanks shouldn't do "stupid things" if they are still learning, that's what experienced tanks do instead.

Proper tanking and enmity management is the offtank doing provoke->Shirk and should the need arise, diversion and/or lucid dreaming for dps. As I said stop being selfish and use the tools at your disposal. Red mages for example should pop diversion because of their heavy burst to start. You're not expected to use them off cooldown but you ARE expected to use them when necessary.

Edlt: Furthermore an enmity combo to start off with is not a bad thing, if anything it's encouraged to do one or two combos depending on party and dps since enmity in this game is strong. However if the tank is geared then if the dps do not use lucid and diversion when needed then the problem is on you, not the tank.

Experienced and geared tanks sitting in tank stance all the time (mostly during bosses and trials/raids) is them just lowering their damage for no gain. On dungeon trash mobs tank stance is (usually) recommended because they can hit harder than bosses in a collective.

[KaivaC]

I'm going to assume they used it on the tank, there's just no point putting it on anyone else. I'm also assuming that if Diversion was used during Shade, which wouldn't generate much aggro on the tank, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case and that the tank was just being bad.

If a DPS uses all their enmity mitigation tools, then it's always the tank's fault for losing aggro. This often happens because the tank isn't well geared and is trying to have 100% up time on their DPS stance, made worse by the OT neglecting to Shirk.

Yeah, I definitely avoid diversion while shade is active.

[MetalSnakeXI1]

Yup, I always target the mt and toss it onto them about 5 seconds before the pull if we get a countdown, or when they instapull, I'll throw it on them and then start my opener. I always make sure that it goes on cooldown and that the correct tank has the Shade icon.

If u had to do this much then the tank on your team flatout sucked,which sadly seems to be very common nowadays with a lot of tanks on raids.

I only use Shadewalker like at emergencies if the OT didn't happen to be the second aggro target when the MT dies but other than that........Diversion was always enough.

I think the problem I've seen with most tanks nowadays....is that once they aggro a boss they go immediately to their DPSing rotation and rarely using their aggro combo

I'm average at tanking myself so I won't pretend I'm better than most tanks but the way I do it with my DRK is this........pull then aggro combo first to lock on the aggro and then swap around between my aggro combo and DPS combo to make sure I'm always on the enmity list.I stopped tanking due to my tankxiety making me panic in high end content but after all those situations.....I may as well repractice my tanking again if only for Normal Raids

[MetalSnakeXI1]

I'm going to assume they used it on the tank, there's just no point putting it on anyone else. I'm also assuming that if Diversion was used during Shade, which wouldn't generate much aggro on the tank, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case and that the tank was just being bad.

If a DPS uses all their enmity mitigation tools, then it's always the tank's fault for losing aggro. This often happens because the tank isn't well geared and is trying to have 100% up time on their DPS stance, made worse by the OT neglecting to Shirk.

That's what I'm getting at.

She was doing pretty much fine,it's just the tanks she ran into were flatout bad

I don't mind newbie tanks as long as it feels like A/ they're learning and B/They don't talk shit to their fellow party members

If someone is nice i can overlook a lot of mishaps but the moment they behave like assholes and play the blame game....that's where a line should be drawn

[MoroMurasaki]

No. Getting through the content is everyone's job. Adjusting for party weaknesses is everyone's job. Getting the enemy's attention and holding it? That's the tank's tank's job. Expecting other roles to manage aggro just so they can stay out of tank stance and dps is not actually in anyone's job description. If your group is down with it, then fine but certainly don't expect it from me unless there's a legit reason I need to aggro dump. :\

Is being a cooldown in your job description? Because that's how you get shirked. I mean heck if you honestly don't do anything for your threat the shirk won't even be necessary.

Your reason to aggro dump is that if you don't you will rip. That's enough. If if isn't enough for you I hope healers are quick with the raises.

If you expect every tank to aggro combo to cover for someone else's ineptitude you are in for a shock.

[Lorgana]

No. Getting through the content is everyone's job. Adjusting for party weaknesses is everyone's job. Getting the enemy's attention and holding it? That's the tank's tank's job. Expecting other roles to manage aggro just so they can stay out of tank stance and dps is not actually in anyone's job description. If your group is down with it, then fine but certainly don't expect it from me unless there's a legit reason I need to aggro dump. :\

If you want to play the game badly that's not the tanks problem, it will however quickly become your problem because if you aren't going to cut you're going to quickly be learning how to tank. I give one warning, then I shirk. If you won't cut your aggro, I'll do it for you until you learn.

[MetalSnakeXI1]

If you want to play the game badly that's not the tanks problem, it will however quickly become your problem because if you aren't going to cut you're going to quickly be learning how to tank. I give one warning, then I shirk. If you won't cut your aggro, I'll do it for you until you learn.

Lol the meme pic xD

I won't deny that DPS and healers would also need to control their enmity as well,but at the same time if the tank has a problem even after the others used their enmity reduction actions then something is wrong on the tank's end.

As I said before I popped Refresh to get my party's MP up then tactician shortly after just to reduce enmity off me yet still neither the OT nor the MT picked the aggro off me and I ate a mustard bomb to the face

Not to mention that some enmity reduction actions have quite the meaty cooldown so I can't keep reducing my enmity forever or always throwing away my Refresh and watch the healers and casters run out of MP

It is indeed a team effort and as a Dark Knight I know that tanking isn't always easy but the jest of it is this:If I do my part for the job I play as I'd naturally expect everyone to do the same.

Tho the funny thing is,my most recent problems with tanks outside O11 doesn't even involve enmity but rather incompetence.......from a Paladin that keeps spinning Tsukiyomi around during cleaves to a Paladin in Rabanastre that refused to pick up our alliance's ad during mateus and instead kept targetting the boss as the ad mow our DPS down(he wasn't even MTing the boss either )

[Vidu]

Aggro dumping is a stop-gap to not dying. It is not there to empower tanks. If a tank is struggling, then yes, the party needs to adjust. But if that tank is struggling to live up to the hype instead of doing their job, well... My enmity skills (or skill, depending on the job) are essentially for ME, and have a long cool-down. Good luck.

No, they're not - or at least not only that.
Look at skills like Shadewalker and Diversion (one a build-in ninja-skill and the other used to be a build-in blackmage-skill, before it become a general role-action): Both reduce the aggro you generate for a given time-frame. They're not "oh shit, I'm about to rip aggro!"-buttons like Lucid Dream or Refresh. They're essiantially telling you "Here, press this button, to make the whole tanking easier for your tank" - and it doesnt matter if that tank is struggeling or someone who cleared Ultimate World First. It makes it easier for the tank, who can in turn play more efficient, if YOU play more efficient.
Using your logic I could argue that a tank shouldnt have to press defensive cooldowns, because its a healers job to keep them healed all the time - and sure, you can get through the game by not making use of your CDs, but that moment you're playing bad. As tank I'm not hitting my CDs to help my healer, but because they're skills that I have at my disposal and that I personally want to make use of to play my class to the best of its potential.

You have those skills. Make use of them to support your tank and your party. Forcing someone to play less efficient, forcing a person who actually cares about performing to the best of their and their jobs potential, because you're to lazy to press your aggro-dumps or because you have this weird notion of how a tank should be played...

It should be in your own best intrest to enable the tank to stay out of tank-stance as much as possible - makes the ran go faster, after all. And if all that it takes from you is pressing a button every 2 minutes its hard for me to get why you'd argue against that.