The Blue Mage Argument at a glance

[Blueyes]

Oh my comment about needing to jump through hoops was in reference to how Limited Jobs such as Blue Mage must have a preformed party for group content and cannot use the Duty Finder. Those restrictions may not be a big deal for some players, but it doesn't change the fact that other jobs aren't required to adhere to such restrictions.

It really isn't necessary to play as Blue Mage to understand what we don't like about Limited Jobs, though I doubt SE will listen to us beforehand. What I described was a best case scenario. Even if I genuinely enjoy Blue Mage and Masked Carnival, I'm still going to be upset. Why? Because SE has already given us hard facts about what Limited Jobs can and cannot do. And unless SE makes changes to those hard facts at the time of BLU's release, which, mind you, would only happen in direct response to the criticism that's being spoken about right now, their product will be delivered exactly as advertised.

[jon041065]

Oh my comment about needing to jump through hoops was in reference to how Limited Jobs such as Blue Mage must have a preformed party for group content and cannot use the Duty Finder. Those restrictions may not be a big deal for some players, but it doesn't change the fact that other jobs aren't required to adhere to such restrictions.

It really isn't necessary to play as Blue Mage to understand what we don't like about Limited Jobs, though I doubt SE will listen to us beforehand. What I described was a best case scenario. Even if I genuinely enjoy Blue Mage and Masked Carnival, I'm still going to be upset. Why? Because SE has already given us hard facts about what Limited Jobs can and cannot do. And unless SE makes changes to those hard facts at the time of BLU's release, which, mind you, would only happen in direct response to the criticism that's being spoken about right now, their product will be delivered exactly as advertised.

I agree completely. Your last line though won't happen. Right now IS the best time to tell them how we feel about limited jobs but it's too late for anything to be changed for probably at least a year. The best we can hope for is a statement from Yoshi soon that they will be working on a blue mage that can be used in ALL the content that combat jobs can partake in.

[Darkpaw]

You have told them how you feel. Continuing to do so based on having no experiences but the "simulations you have run in yours head" will achieve little to nothing. So what harm is there in actually going and experiencing it and finding the bits and pieces they haven't told you that will one support your initial arguments, two bolster your initial arguments, and three discredit their idea for this implementation? To me that seems like common sense. You can take the resources they have put into the job, the skills, the way it plays, the animations, the various other aspects of the job and the system itself that they have not and likely will not tell you. Knowledge you can only reliably get first hand, and use that knowledge to drive your point home. Create a forum post, guide your FC mates, your friends, your static members, your server, your data center to your forum post on your ideal implementation, unify the community behind an idea and show the Dev Team that you have the support of the community to give them a reason.

Let's make a few things clear. Without an enforceable boycott of the content upon release until you get what you are asking for which let's face facts is extremely unlikely and nearly impossible to enforce. There's nothing more to be done right now (mainly because it's too late to stop this implementation from coming out), but get facts and back up your concerns with legitimate ideas using knowledge only you can get when you put fingers to keys/controllers.

Two: It is extraordinarily unlikely they will fully abandon this content or system but perhaps the idea floating around of a second "balanced job crystal" could hold some sway if enough voices got behind it. Blueyes stated themselves that "I doubt SE will listen to us beforehand." which is exactly right. There's no reason to listen right now beyond what they have already heard. Because we have no verifiable proof. We have no experience. So while I agree with the sentiment of what Blueyes is saying. the whole "It really isn't necessary to play blue mage to understand what we don't like about Limited Jobs" statement is a half truth. She is correct it's not necessary to play to know how we feel. It is necessary to play in order to turn those feelings into a strong argument and counter to what they are offering. Because that play experience can be used to bolster and further the arguments against the system.

[GrenGarm]

There's no reason to listen right now beyond what they have already heard.

You keep saying this, and telling us to shut up with our "uninformed" complaints. But it's all we can do right now.

When BLU releases we'll do all that other stuff you want us to do. The whole community will.

Until then, all we can do is loudly repeat: WE HATE THIS. We might be shouting into a vacuum, but if I want to shout into a vacuum, I will. That's how much I dislike this direction for BLU and all future "Limited Jobs." Just typing that name feels icky.

[Darkpaw]

You keep saying this, and telling us to shut up with our "uninformed" complaints. But it's all we can do right now.

When BLU releases we'll do all that other stuff you want us to do. The whole community will.

Until then, all we can do is loudly repeat: WE HATE THIS. We might be shouting into a vacuum, but if I want to shout into a vacuum, I will. That's how much I dislike this direction for BLU and all future "Limited Jobs." Just typing that name feels icky.

Don't think I ever said shut up or even meant to imply that. Not so much as to try and offer an alternative to beating your chest and "screaming into a vacuum"

Perhaps you are right and the whole community will join you. I may even do the same. Perhaps not. Time will tell, but if you feel the need to continually "scream into the vacuum" then I'll leave you be.

[Blueyes]

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It isn't often that I will address someone directly on the forum, but I must admit, I am genuinely curious about what you hope to achieve. And I don't mean to imply that offensively by any means. It's a sincere question that I have.

If the intention is to be a peacekeeper between the two sides of the debate, it doesn't really come off that way, if I'm being honest. Many of your replies to this topic don't seem to carry the same neutral tone expressed in your document. That is just a personal observation that I've made.

You are absolutely right on your point about collecting data. Once we get our hands on Blue Mage, we will have acquired first-hand, detailed experience with SE's first Limited Job. The information that we gain from that experience will be undoubtedly valuable in making a case for or against Blue Mage as a Limited Job. But by saying that it's better to acquire first-hand knowledge before causing a riot, what is being implied? Is it that people's words right now, whether for or against Blue Mage as a Limited job, hold little weight? And if those arguments do hold little weight, does that then imply that debating the matter, at this point in time, is ultimately pointless? If that is the case, then I can't say that I agree with that sentiment. I could be mistaken about your point, but it is what I've discerned.

People are upset and SE should know that. They're probably at least aware that there's been a backlash, or rather, I hope that they're aware. No one can really say whether SE even knows that people are upset until an official statement has been made. Maybe something has been said on the Japanese side of the forum. I wouldn't know, but if that had happened, I'm sure someone would have reported on the news by now.

Approximately one month has passed since the announcement of Blue Mage as a Limited Job. One month, and it's still a hotly debated topic. That goes to show just how passionate people are about the subject. SE needs to know how passionate people are. If everyone quieted down after the first week, would that give SE more or less reason to be concerned? I think they would have felt less worried, but to be frank, they should be worried. SE is attempting something extremely risky. No other job announcement has sparked this much debate. When a new job is announced, that should be one of the most exciting moments for FFXIV players. Instead, many players have been filled with dread.

People need to remain vocal. They should be vocal during the weeks leading up to the release of Blue Mage and the debate will continue for months thereafter. It conveys the gravity of how much people care about or detest Blue Mage and Limited Jobs.

[AC9Breaker]

I walk away from these experiences knowing that I fully enjoyed both Blue Mage and Masked Carnival. Does that make me a happy customer? It doesn't, actually. If anything, it could potentially make the issue worse, because now I have a job that I love more than any other that I can't use in a large sum of the game's content.

Put simply, the issue people have isn't with Masked Carnival or even Blue Mage. The issue is with Limited Jobs. It's important to understand what you're asking when you tell people, "please try it first." It's asking people to first see what it's like to be restricted from content, then come back to give feedback.

I feel like you're ignoring own thought experiment to simply jump to your main talking point. If you end up liking the job, why is it that you like it? What is it that Blue Mage is doing that makes it your new favorite job? For this class to become your new favorite job it has to be doing something unique and interesting. Would the job still be the same if it was forced to fit into the 3 role Meta? I feel like Blue Mage is the developers attempt at giving players greater freedom to be creative on how we approach a conflict. As it is, the current system is too structured and allows for very little deviation from what works. It seems as though Blue means to fill this void that many players aren't even aware of because they're too busy trying to fit into the mold. But I would also like to talk about the subject of this level 50 cap and the segregation this class faces from current content.

Everything is speculative as we have only been giving the most general of descriptions about this job. However the few nuggets of details we've been told about this job have grown to fill whatever bias the person reading them has come to think. One concrete detail that I feel has had a lot of speculation latched to it is initial statement of level 50 cap as if its the end all be all for this class;they also disregard the comments that follow it which is the class will eventually see its cap increase with 5.0. But lets forget about that announcement pairing announcement pairing and lets think for a second. Does it not seem like an easy way to provide content for this class, is to raise its level and therefore give it access to content that is already there ? Does it not seem sensible that it will gain access to other areas and instances to learn new moves? Does this not seem like an obvious move?

Regardless of this there is also the statement of this classes segregation from current content. As I've said before I think the clear distinction from what is current content is important because this will clearly spell out what this class will be unable to join. To be honest though, if this class truly promotes and prioritizes player creativity, then its segregation from current content will not bother me in the slightest.

[AC9Breaker]

You are absolutely right on your point about collecting data. Once we get our hands on Blue Mage, we will have acquired first-hand, detailed experience with SE's first Limited Job. The information that we gain from that experience will be undoubtedly valuable in making a case for or against Blue Mage as a Limited Job. But by saying that it's better to acquire first-hand knowledge before causing a riot, what is being implied? Is it that people's words right now, whether for or against Blue Mage as a Limited job, hold little weight? And if those arguments do hold little weight, does that then imply that debating the matter, at this point in time, is ultimately pointless? If that is the case, then I can't say that I agree with that sentiment. I could be mistaken about your point, but it is what I've discerned.

People are upset and SE should know that. They're probably at least aware that there's been a backlash, or rather, I hope that they're aware. No one can really say whether SE even knows that people are upset until an official statement has been made. Maybe something has been said on the Japanese side of the forum. I wouldn't know, but if that had happened, I'm sure someone would have reported on the news by now.

Approximately one month has passed since the announcement of Blue Mage as a Limited Job. One month, and it's still a hotly debated topic. That goes to show just how passionate people are about the subject. SE needs to know how passionate people are. If everyone quieted down after the first week, would that give SE more or less reason to be concerned? I think they would have felt less worried, but to be frank, they should be worried. SE is attempting something extremely risky. No other job announcement has sparked this much debate. When a new job is announced, that should be one of the most excitement moments for FFXIV players. Instead, many players have been filled with dread.

People need to remain vocal. They should be vocal during the weeks leading up to the release of Blue Mage and the debate will continue for months thereafter. It conveys the gravity of how much people care about or detest Blue Mage and Limited Jobs.

I think the point Darkpaw is trying to make is the same I'm trying to and that is to prevent the stifling of our developers creativity and implementation of new ideas. I think we can all agree, if limited job would have been announced with anything other then Blue Mage it wouldn't have caused as huge a reaction it did. The cries against Blue Mage seem to be mostly based off of emotion and knee jerk reaction as opposed to understanding and reasoning.

[Seraphor]

People need to remain vocal. They should be vocal during the weeks leading up to the release of Blue Mage and the debate will continue for months thereafter. It conveys the gravity of how much people care about or detest Blue Mage and Limited Jobs.

And what about those who do like the idea of Blue Mage for sticking to its roots, or Limited Jobs for the posibility of good side content?
Are we allowed to be vocal or does that make us shills?

[Blueyes]

Many people share a belief that Blue Mage has to be all or nothing. To retain the true identity of Blue Mage, it must be restricted from content or else it would destroy the balance of the game. Anything else would mean an empty shell that is nothing more than a Black Mage with a coat of blue paint. I firmly disagree with the belief that it must be one or the other. Those are the extreme ends of the spectrum. I wish to achieve a middle ground. I want Blue Mage to become a job that is balanced while innovative at the same time. That is what I want and I believe it is possible.

Masked Carnival, learning spells from monsters, a wide variety of spells with varying utility that can be swapped in and out, all of that could have worked alongside a job that was balanced for current content. I'm dead serious when I say that. When Blue Mage is released, I will play it, I will study it, and I will do my best to formulate a solution for how Blue Mage can work as a balanced job while stripping away as little as possible.

So to answer your question directly, to why I would like Blue Mage, I would like that spells need to learned directly from monsters. I would appreciate the wide variety of spells. I would enjoy that its available spells can be swapped around to best suit a given situation. I just don't believe that access to current content had to be compromised in order to have those things.

I want SE to push the boundaries of what Jobs can do. But in this case, I'd say that they pushed too far. It got pushed into its own little corner away from everything else.

And what about those who do like the idea of Blue Mage for sticking to its roots, or Limited Jobs for the posibility of good side content?
Are we allowed to be vocal or does that make us shills?

Of course you're allowed to be vocal. I didn't state otherwise. My statement was that those who are passionate about this subject should continue to be vocal. That applies to both sides of the debate.