The Blue Mage Argument at a glance

[Darkpaw]

If you don't want it either, then why are you spending so much time defending it? Just let us be angry and disappointed. Square needs to hear that.

Because i believe that logic and reason hold more power than blindly throwing aggression around. Experience speaks volumes. That’s what i am advocating. If a week after blu comes out and you want to relight the forums on fire. Dude be my guest but please give it a shot first and come back with experience and a well thought out point to make. Thats it. Thats all im asking. Im not saying let it change your mind but atleast aee what there is to build a case off of.

[Dualgunner]

Because i believe that logic and reason hold more power than blindly throwing aggression around. Experience speaks volumes. That’s what i am advocating. If a week after blu comes out and you want to relight the forums on fire. Dude be my guest but please give it a shot first and come back with experience and a well thought out point to make. Thats it. Thats all im asking. Im not saying let it change your mind but atleast aee what there is to build a case off of.

A week after, if people dislike it and the forums are lit on fire, there will be people who say "Wait until 5.0, clearly the content wasn't made to be complete and they'll make it better when the level cap raises." In recent memory, this happened with WHM: "Wait to try Lilies out! You can't know they suck." People knew they sucked. "Wait till first raids we'll see if they really suck then." They really sucked then. "Wait till the buff patch rolls around." "Wait to actually try Eureka." "Wait till Pagos it will be better."

This is why people generally don't respond well to "Wait and see" arguments. Usually these pre-release worries are accurate to a degree of relevancy.

[GrenGarm]

A week after, if people dislike it and the forums are lit on fire, there will be people who say "Wait until 5.0, clearly the content wasn't made to be complete and they'll make it better when the level cap raises." In recent memory, this happened with WHM: "Wait to try Lilies out! You can't know they suck." People knew they sucked. "Wait till first raids we'll see if they really suck then." They really sucked then. "Wait till the buff patch rolls around." "Wait to actually try Eureka." "Wait till Pagos it will be better."

This is why people generally don't respond well to "Wait and see" arguments. Usually these pre-release worries are accurate to a degree of relevancy.

Exactly. People act like there's no way to know in advance how bad something will be until they play it. Look at BFA. So many people in alpha and beta told Blizzard that BFA was a disaster: classes were pruned to the state of utter boredom, Azerite gear wasn't an adequate replacement for Artifacts, Island Expeditions and Warfronts were a snoozefest.

We told them this for months. Meanwhile, others were saying, "No, wait and see. Wait till beta. Wait till release. Wait till 8.1." Well, Blizzard listened to the wait and see crowd and not the people complaining. Guess what? WoW is crashing to Earth in fiery ruins and people are fleeing to FF14 in droves.

I don't want to see the same thing happen to FF14. So no, I will NOT wait and see.

[Darkpaw]

Exactly. People act like there's no way to know in advance how bad something will be until they play it. Look at BFA. So many people in alpha and beta told Blizzard that BFA was a disaster: classes were pruned to the state of utter boredom, Azerite gear wasn't an adequate replacement for Artifacts, Island Expeditions and Warfronts were a snoozefest.

We told them this for months. Meanwhile, others were saying, "No, wait and see. Wait till beta. Wait till release. Wait till 8.1." Well, Blizzard listened to the wait and see crowd and not the people complaining. Guess what? WoW is crashing to Earth in fiery ruins and people are fleeing to FF14 in droves.

I don't want to see the same thing happen to FF14. So no, I will NOT wait and see.

Key points there in alpha and beta. I am not saying that your points are invalid. They have been made now rather than continuing, experience as the alpha and beta testers in bfa did and come back with experience to back up your concerns. That doesn’t seem too unreasonable, and it likely offers the best chance of success. I will likely be one of the ones supporting your continued argument after you have come back with experience i may even write a forum post of my own based off my own experiences to point out my criticisms of the implementation and the job as a whole.

See what works in the implementation and see what falls flat. Find positives and negatives they may not have seen that support your arguments and points.

[Dualgunner]

See what works in the implementation and see what falls flat. Find positives and negatives they may not have seen that support your arguments and points.

Then get told they'll fix it soon, just wait and stop whining. We've seen this cycle a few times in Stormblood alone.

It's great that at the point we can experience it you'll be open to feedback on the concept and implementation, but the point of our posts is there will always be somebody saying "Just wait."

[Darkpaw]

Then get told they'll fix it soon, just wait and stop whining. We've seen this cycle a few times in Stormblood alone.

It's great that at the point we can experience it you'll be open to feedback on the concept and implementation, but the point of our posts is there will always be somebody saying "Just wait."

While true and I see your point there and it is valid Dual. There will be a lot less of it and a lot less people pushing back against it. When someone points out after you have experience "Just wait and see." You can validly say. We did wait and see, the time for wait and see is over. This is my feedback after taking the time to experience it, I've thought out my points and I have evidence for my argument and if you can not see that I'm sorry but I will not change my post.

Because at that point you have done the responsible thing. You voiced your initial feedback, you took the time to experience it and got cold hard facts based on experience. Taken the time to write out a post detailing your experience and your opinion on the experience, and are coming back with a well reasoned point of view based on fact and experience and gives you more details to flesh out your initial argument and make it even better. I have not seen a single "bad idea" in these forums on what BLU could be and how it could be done. Now that those are out. Get the experience and flesh out those arguments and points with in game experience and facts. Those who tell you to just wait can easily be drowned out by a unified chorus of well thought out feedback.

Believe me I know how annoying those wait and see posts can be after you have had experience. I play MCH, I love the class, but I'm one of many who are furious about it's treatment in Stormblood.

[Blueyes]

please give it a shot first and come back with experience and a well thought out point to make.

Let's say that, after trying Blue Mage, I find it to be surprisingly fun and engaging. So much that it quickly becomes my new favorite job in FFXIV. I test my skills inside the Masked Carnival and it proves to be a fun and challenging solo encounter.

I walk away from these experiences knowing that I fully enjoyed both Blue Mage and Masked Carnival. Does that make me a happy customer? It doesn't, actually. If anything, it could potentially make the issue worse, because now I have a job that I love more than any other that I can't use in a large sum of the game's content.

Put simply, the issue people have isn't with Masked Carnival or even Blue Mage. The issue is with Limited Jobs. It's important to understand what you're asking when you tell people, "please try it first." It's asking people to first see what it's like to be restricted from content, then come back to give feedback. This is something that players can already simulated. If you happen to have a job that's level 50, switch over to that and see what's available to you. Then realize that Blue Mage has access to even less content. And what it can access, it has to jump through extra hoops to get there. Hoops that no other job has to deal with.

[Darkpaw]

Yet, in your hypothetical you have done what I have advocated. Went and experienced it and can come back and actually back up your claim and join in on the calls to remove it from this limited job system or give us a version of the job that exists outside of the limited job system. I understand completely what I'm asking but what I am suggesting is common sense. Any argument worth it's salt is based in fact and experience, and let's take your other level 50 job comparison.

What are you missing out on from the other "regular" level 50 job as a BLU. Duty finder and PotD. What are you getting to make up for it. The masked carnival. Which we still don't know a whole lot about, So we really are not missing out on much. Premade parties are still a thing.

As for the extra hoops. Here in the NA server we use Party Finder more often then we ever use Duty Finder. They have the stat sheets to back that up. So it's not really extra hoops. Yea, you have to go learn your blue magic, but how many of us have ran a dungeon with a player who has not completed all of their job quests and are missing a key skill. Or don't put something on their hotbar. How much salt has been slung during those moments.

While I understand and sympathize with the idea that people will still want a full implementation of BLU and not have it just exist in the limited system it is now. I have asked and suggested to reinforce those arguments by gathering experience and getting hard facts from the in game experience to utilize to build their cases so they are that much stronger. Like a well reasoned mature adult would when cultivating an argument. You don't just wing a college paper based on the facts you think you know. You do the research and get it done with facts you yourself have found and experienced and studied. The initial reaction has been said. Now go get the facts to bolster those points so many have made. Make them stronger and unify under those calls. There lies the best chance of getting the wish of a fully implemented blu fulfilled.

[GrenGarm]

You don't just wing a college paper based on the facts you think you know. You do the research and get it done with facts you yourself have found and experienced and studied. The initial reaction has been said. Now go get the facts to bolster those points so many have made. Make them stronger and unify under those calls. There lies the best chance of getting the wish of a fully implemented blu fulfilled.

You do know that actual scientists run simulations all the time in order to glean data to apply to real events? Experiencing a phenomenon firsthand isn't the only way to learn about it.

BLU isn't quantum chromodynamics, so it's even easier to figure out what we hate about it from running the simulation in our head. I think the point that Blueyes made was a really good one. If we don't like the job as designed, then it's a bad design to us and we want it be different. If we enjoy the job though -- that actually makes the entire situation worse. Because at that point we'd want to bring it to the content that's new, relevant, and most fun. And we just can't. Because of a handful of spells that Square insists have to be part of the BLU experience. So it's a bad design to us and we want it to be different.

I can simulate the outcome either way, and either way I hate the design. I don't need to play the job to reach this conclusion. There are two possible outcomes. Both are awful.

[jon041065]

Let's say that, after trying Blue Mage, I find it to be surprisingly fun and engaging. So much that it quickly becomes my new favorite job in FFXIV. I test my skills inside the Masked Carnival and it proves to be a fun and challenging solo encounter.

I walk away from these experiences knowing that I fully enjoyed both Blue Mage and Masked Carnival. Does that make me a happy customer? It doesn't, actually. If anything, it could potentially make the issue worse, because now I have a job that I love more than any other that I can't use in a large sum of the game's content.

Put simply, the issue people have isn't with Masked Carnival or even Blue Mage. The issue is with Limited Jobs. It's important to understand what you're asking when you tell people, "please try it first." It's asking people to first see what it's like to be restricted from content, then come back to give feedback. This is something that players can already simulated. If you happen to have a job that's level 50, switch over to that and see what's available to you. Then realize that Blue Mage has access to even less content. And what it can access, it has to jump through extra hoops to get there. Hoops that no other job has to deal with.

This is the point a lot of us have been making and Blueyes has worded well. The only part I might have a problem with is the "jumping through hoops" if they meant having to go learn spells. I don't see there being a problem with some jobs having some barrier to entry.