The Blue Mage Argument at a glance

[AC9Breaker]

I guess there's no room for nuance in this discussion. Every MMO has its own idiosyncrasies, and certain designs work better in some MMOs than others. But at the end of the day, a class is a class. Across the board, if a class is specifically locked out of a huge swath of the game's content -- not by player perception, but by the devs themselves -- then it's not a real class. I want BLU as a real class. You don't. That's fine, but stop trying to tell me that I have to try it out before I judge or that the BLU design is a good idea. I don't and it isn't. And I'm going to keep saying that until Square hears it.

Again, you fall back on semantics and self imposed restrictions. A class is whatever the designers make it to be. Blue Mage is a class that will play the game and experience things in a manner we have have not been accustomed to yet, however being locked out from a "huge swath" of content is still a speculative statement when you don't know what the final product will be and, once again what the definition of "current content" is.

You're right though, telling you to try it out before you judge it is a wasted effort when you're so adamant on your bias. I can understand though, often new and different things are usually met with with resistance. So I can understand why this departure from the norm is causing so much frustration for you. Regardless, your emotions are not a sound reason on making a decision or in this case, casting judgement. It's just being absurd.

[Darkpaw]

You're being willfully ignorant about how crafting works in MMOs. Crafting is pretty much always optional. Just because, in this one specific game, the devs call the crafting professions "jobs," that means that actual combat-oriented jobs don't need to participate in the combat portion of the game? How does that make any sense?

No I'm not being willfully ignorant at all. You can try to discredit me all you like but you can't actually counter the point that was made. Deflect all you like but it does not change facts. There are people in this game who are self proclaimed main crafters and gatherers. They use those jobs as their main interaction and enjoyment of this game. Therefore to those people. Crafting and gathering are real jobs. Not side content.

You are correct crafting and gathering is entirely optional, but is it wrong of the dev team to lock them out of their end game content unless they level at the least one combat class and finish up MSQ? If it isn't wrong for the developers to lock crafters and gatherers to lock them out of their end game content by chaining it behind MSQ and combat actions that certain sections of the player base may not find as enjoyable. By that extension if you do not believe it is wrong for the dev team to lock crafters and gatherers out of certain content because they haven't done all of msq or max leveled a combat class. Then it is not wrong to lock blue mage out of certain content to let them grow at their own pace in their own system. Much like crafters and gatherers do.

What is being willfully ignorant is ignoring this very blatant and deliberate comparison because you wish to cherry pick the points people on the opposing view have used to make counter arguments that are solely focused on small pieces of the greater points being made.

[Kabooa]

No I'm not being willfully ignorant at all. You can try to discredit me all you like but you can't actually counter the point that was made.

Implying any of us has to discredit the argument.

No gatherer is locked out of gathering content.

No crafter is locked out of crafting content.

Until this point, no battle class has been locked out of battle content.

We can make the argument that Blue Mage deserves its own category (As will Beast Master, Puppetmaster, and every other job they're too lazy to integrate), but then we're absolutely right in saying it's the same scope of Gold Saucer and Diadem.

[GrenGarm]

There are people in this game who are self proclaimed main crafters and gatherers. They use those jobs as their main interaction and enjoyment of this game. Therefore to those people. Crafting and gathering are real jobs. Not side content.

Imagine Square added a crafting job to the game, one that many, many players had been asking for since the game was released. We'll call it NEW.

Square announces NEW. Everyone is thrilled!

Only, it turns out, instead of NEW being like all the other crafting jobs, NEW can't level to max. NEW can only level to 50. Someday it'll be able to level up past that, but we aren't sure when.

NEW can't use leves to level and won't have any quests.

NEW won't be able to post the items they craft on the market boards. They are way too difficult to balance economically, so NEW will only be able to trade the items they craft with friends.

None of the items NEW makes will be allowed to be equipped in PVP or Duty Finder instances. These items can only be equipped while doing open world content.

Finally, NEW can't make any items to be equipped above level 50.

Now go ahead and tell me all those crafter mains out there would throw a party over NEW and embrace it with open arms.

[GrenGarm]

Again, you fall back on semantics and self imposed restrictions.

I am dying of laughter at the irony.

[Darkpaw]

-snip-

While I applaud the attempt at a comparison. You went completely overdramatic to try and force a biased opinion but hey whatever's clever. So, let's go point by point trying to keep up with your rather.. jaded comparison.

Can't level to max can only level to 50. This is a bad argument to base anything on because you make your own counter argument. "We aren't sure when." so going off the rails about something you have no knowledge of is a bit foolhardy especially when you take into account that you are dropping "NEW" at the end of an expansion knowing that expac will change a great many things. Moving on now.

New can't use leves to level and won't have any other quests. I believe you are making the comparison between the BLU's prog being open world rather than dungeon oriented and the no quests thing I'm not sure where you're pulling that from. It'll have job quests we just won't get abilities from it. So what's the problem with giving an alternate progression system compared to the same ole same ole? Oh grind dungeons, grind FATEs, grind deep dungeons. It's rather refreshing. Plus while leves are the most optimal way to level crafters they aren't the only one. I've straight crafted without a leve or a collectible the entire way.

Can't post the items to market boards. So this is the big raid comparison. Okay, going to point out the obvious flaw in this comparison. We're at the end of a raid tier. It would be difficult to balance a traditional blue mage. You want something other than a traditional sucks but that's not what you are getting. To make the raid comparison with the market board aspect of crafters and gatherers are quite frankly ridiculous as it is the only form they have to express and sell their wares. BLU has other ways of being in content just not current savage content.

PVP or Duty finder instances. Please point out a single item that actually has use in PvP at all? Oh right they don't. So, swing and a miss. But lets look at a few facts. PVP is still a minority in this game and is often one of the most hated aspects of this game so I get not dropping a potentially balance shattering job into that nightmare because PVP is bad enough. Instanced dungeons.. oh wait you can do that just not in the duty finder to avoid salt like this. Seems smart to me.

Can't make any items to be equipped above 50. Once again we fall back to initial level cap. To which I refer you back to my counter to your first point. This is a non argument because you have no information about when it gets lifted or how frequently. Railing against this point is like getting upset at people for saying Bigfoot exists, or arguing we are the only sentient race in the universe. You have no clue what you're talking about because I have no clue about being able to make a counter argument about it other than what we were told. "Level cap will be released with subsequent patches."

[AC9Breaker]

I am dying of laughter at the irony.

I'm glad you see the humor in the absurdity of your logic.
I'll explain for anyone who hasn't been following our exchanges.

Our Mi'Qote friend here states that a class is only class if and only if they have access to X, Y, and Z content.
Our Dev team on the other hand seems to view a class as a vehicle in which they experience the world in this game.

The first definition has clear defined limits. The second definition is a lot more abstract and provides for greater potential.
Clearly, GreenGram has seen the logic in this which is why he laughs at the irony of his position to criticize Blue Mage for its limits; when its his own limited classification of what roles and classes are in this game that spur such initial frustration in him. This is obvious since he then does not go on to explain anything else in his post.
Therefore this is the conclusion we must come to.

[GrenGarm]

While I applaud the attempt at a comparison

You are grasping at straws to debunk this analogy. It's sad.

I understand you're fine with BLU as is. But you don't have to white knight so hard. You're getting what you want already.

[Darkpaw]

You are grasping at straws to debunk this analogy. It's sad.

I understand you're fine with BLU as is. But you don't have to white knight so hard. You're getting what you want already.

I’m grasping at straws.. so far your every argument has boiled down to “it’s locked at level 50!!!” And i am the one grasping at straws. Also don’t put words in my mouth.

I did not want this but i can be adult enough to accept this is what is happening and see the valid points on why they have made the choices they have made. All I have tried to “white knight” is giving people some light in this implementation and asked for patience to get experience so people can provide actual reason based and logical feedback rather than kneejerk reactions based on speculation and fear of worse case scenario. Try to open your mind up to the possibility that not all content is made with you personally in mind and see what the system and job offers the commjnity as a whole after you experience it.

[GrenGarm]

I’m grasping at straws.. so far your every argument has boiled down to “it’s locked at level 50!!!” And i am the one grasping at straws. Also don’t put words in my mouth.

I did not want this but i can be adult enough to accept this is what is happening and see the valid points on why they have made the choices they have made. All I have tried to “white knight” is giving people some light in this implementation and asked for patience to get experience so people can provide actual reason based and logical feedback rather than kneejerk reactions based on speculation and fear of worse case scenario. Try to open your mind up to the possibility that not all content is made with you personally in mind and see what the system and job offers the commjnity as a whole after you experience it.

If you don't want it either, then why are you spending so much time defending it? Just let us be angry and disappointed. Square needs to hear that.