Late to the BLU Party

[SDaemon]

I'm not actually advocating that Goblin Punch be like any of these examples but was trying to make a point that there are other versions of the spells and ways to work them into 14.

The HP one would have to work off a potency range with the higher range being when you're at lower HP. Could be something you used on cooldown or something you planned ahead to use like after taking a large hit. A possible issue would be people intentionally getting their HP low or having healers leave them low in order to get the most out of it.

The rng one would be fine as long as most of the blue spells were not like it. Just one would be okay imo.

Were you one of the people saying that the spells have to be how they were in past FF game or were you willing to have spells that felt the same?

If it were up to me, I'd go with what this person has for the spell if they make blu able to be a tank someday. https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...concept_pitch/

If blu remains a caster dps or can be melee, then I'd give it like 100 potency with chance to hit for 300 and then it's also earth damage for spell weaving/combo purposes like I described here. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l-Blu-Concepts

Anyway, we don't know for sure if Goblin Punch is even in the game and how it will work if it is.

You brought those examples up as counterpoints to Fyce's argument. I'm just addressing their flaws.

Neither of those situations would be favorable. It isn't just a possible issue, it would definitely arise as an issue in that people would intentionally try and keep their HP as low as possible to maximize their DPS and RNG DPS is rarely ever well received when the content demands you dish out as much DPS as possible within a set amount of time.

If BLU remains a Caster DPS? There has never been any precedent for SE to change the role of a job after its been announced let alone released.....

In that link the only one that mentions Goblin Punch is Flana. Alt? Either way their example does basically what I mentioned early, in that it relates to a potency increase based on a combo, something the player can control, not RNG.

You are correct in that Goblin Punch may not even be one of the available skills.

[jon041065]

You brought those examples up as counterpoints to Fyce's argument. I'm just addressing their flaws.

Neither of those situations would be favorable. It isn't just a possible issue, it would definitely arise as an issue in that people would intentionally try and keep their HP as low as possible to maximize their DPS and RNG DPS is rarely ever well received when the content demands you dish out as much DPS as possible within a set amount of time.

If BLU remains a Caster DPS? There has never been any precedent for SE to change the role of a job after its been announced let alone released.....

In that link the only one that mentions Goblin Punch is Flana. Alt? Either way their example does basically what I mentioned early, in that it relates to a potency increase based on a combo, something the player can control, not RNG.

You are correct in that Goblin Punch may not even be one of the available skills.

They were discussion/debate points. Brought them up mostly so we could discuss how the spells have had different versions before and ultimately why 14 could as well.

Yeah, I'm not fond of the HP thing myself. There's a move on WoW that encourages the player to take damage while it's active and it's not my cup of tea. It would be some different on 14 though and that seems to be all the rage with some people. They just want something different and don't seem to care what exactly it is. They are like Barney Stinson and believe that "new is always better".

The rng one wouldn't necessarily be poorly received but would depend on how well the rest of the job was balanced and if it the low end potency made it worthwhile or not.

At least we agree that it would be difficult to put in something like Goblin Punch in a traditional sense but myself and others are fine with spells that FEEL similar. They would probably need to have an additional function like how I said they could be elemental aligned for spell combos. They would need to be FFXIV's versions of the spells and not strictly just what they have been in previous FF games. So would still feel like a blue mage but be a different take on it.



When I said that blu might change role, I meant that IF SE makes a balanced version that they could have a different role. Either they would have to make a curated spell set for the job (remains as ranged caster), make it a separate job (different soul crystals) entirely, or make it multi-role with curated spell sets. They would probably go with that first one IF they made blu available in the full game but getting multi-role jobs would be fun.

[Mibgestalt]

First, I never said that Elemental skills where "gimmicky". The only thing even remotly close to that was when I took Aqua Breath, Goblin Punch and 1000 Needles as examples to say that these skills were not only direct neutral damage spells, but had a gimmick attached to them (Aqua Breath dealing more damage to Desert enemies, Goblin Punch taking enemies level into account, and 1000 Needles dealing fixed damage). The post was also answering to someone saying that BLU -for them- was all about nuke skills. It is a fact that 95% of the skills I listed are not nuke skills. I don't even know how you can argue against that.

Whatever the case, Elemental damage is -in the context of games with elemental resistances and weaknesses- situational, yes. Like it or not. Saying no would show a complete lack of knowledge as to what situational even means. You wouldn't use a Fire spell on Ifrit in most previous titles. And if you had the choice between two elemental skills, you'd choose the one that'd exploit the most the elemental weaknesses of the enemies. That's the very definition of situational skills: used in certain situations. And BLU's toolkit across a majority of previous FF titles was absolutly full of these skills. There's no possibility of denying that.

I mean I already did. By your definition, the definitive "nuke" class in all of Final Fantasy, Black Mage, has no nuke spells. You picked non-elemental spells as some metric of a "nuke", which is just flat out incorrect. Maybe your definition of nuke is just far off what the traditional definition is? A high damage spell. That's pretty much it. Been that way since DND in the 80s, and no one there said Fireball wasn't a nuke because it didn't work on fire elementals. I'm not really going to debate you on what a "nuke" means if the root of your claim is just a disconnect from common definitions. However, saying that 95% of Blue Mage skills is gimmicky or highly situational, to me and many others, is just a skewed claim being made to bolster your argument. I feel you'd be better off not even citing that number. You could make the exact same argument with the more accurate and honest "50% of spells in Blue Mage's kit aren't even damage spells, and it even goes up to 80% in a game like Final Fantasy Tactics: Advance".

Elemental spells in classic games are as "situational" as literally any attack in the game. Including basic auto attacks, there are enemies with high evade and or ridiculous defense where you're better off casting spells, so I guess literally everything is situational, which still makes your argument weak and bad. Also saying "You can't argue that" or "you can't deny that" is not a proper point in and of itself. For someone who fixates very heavily on intellectual debate terms like ad hominem, you'd think you'd be avoiding that sort of bizarre close-minded statement.

Removing BLU of its situational skills, and/or making everything deal non-elemental damage DOES hurt what Blue Magic is about. Just like what happened to Black Mage when they lost their elemental skills just to fit the 2.0 mold. Stripping a toolkit from its very purpose is an identity loss. I don't even know how you can question that.

I literally never questioned that, again, you accuse me of putting words in your mouth and then are doing the same thing to me. At this point we both may as well abandon the moral high ground.

Saying "what do you actually like in that job, since you are okay with throwing a lot of things away to make it fit the mold?" is definitly not the same as saying "you guys don't care about BLU!"
That's the very reason why I gave people a chance at describing what they do care about.[/B] You definitly got my intentions and the goal of my post completly wrong..

If people are fine with removing every aspect of BLU's toolkit, as long as they can play the job like any other, I'm sorry but yes, it does show that you don't really care about that toolkit I described above. That's not me disrespecting someone. That's me saying to others "your opinion looks like you don't care about what others might consider as important aspects of the job". [B]

And yes, I do understand that what I asked could be taken as an aggression, but when people show that they absolutly don't care about some aspects of the job that are key to its identity, and get entitled about the job as to say that "all battle jobs should be able to do exactly the same stuff!", I REALLY don't have to be kind when asking my question.

Do I need to explain the juxtaposition between what you're saying in the first quote and in the second? Claiming to be "just looking for answers" and "respectful of people's opinions", and then treat things like: "People who don't like the toolkit don't care as much", "People are entitled", "opinions don't carry as much weight", "people show they absolutly don't care about some aspects about the job that are key to it's identity" as inherent truths undermines the intentions you claim are so innocent.

Why do you think I was asking exactly that? I completly admitted that I had no idea what they actually liked about the job. That was the very reason of why I asked about it!

Because it did, and still does, come off as insincere when everything else you say undermines it and takes jabs at people who hold contrary opinions. Maybe you think tone and method of discussion is superfluous. When you ask, it seems it's because you've already made up your mind. If you really are just looking for answers you won't get the right ones by having discussions with an aggressive tone.

You put words in my mouth. You got me wrong. You accused me of being disrespectful. You accused me of giving false information. I refute absolutly everything you said in that regards.
You also didn't contribute anything to my point. You whole post was just a big ad hominem against me and the way I asked my question. I'm sorry but being apologetic while making a SECOND post with exactly the same claims feel absolutly dishonest and far from being sincere.

Dude, people's perception of your style of discussion as being aggressive and disrespectful is opinion, it can't really be wrong, regardless of what you claim your intentions to be. That's a failing on you as a communicator when you're in a public forum expressing your beliefs and claim to be looking for dialogue.

You keep saying ad hominem, but I've always been focusing on the way you frame your argument, not you. Even still, your position is "I don't think you can like Blue Mage that much unless you like it in the way I think is acceptable, prove me wrong", which is hardly a position meriting factual debate because it's entirely subjective. I've never once said anything bad about your character, and if you took it that way, I apologized. I didn't apologize for how disrespectful your approach is. You claim you are asking for opinions and for a point to be made that is completely based in feelings, but then try and disprove them like facts because you can't or don't want to understand them. You don't come off as wanting a discussion. You come off as wanting to prove how your opinion is right, when it can never be because it's an opinion on a wholly subjective matter.

I didn't contribute anything to your point because no one has to defend their love of the class or appreciation for its different facets to you. It was arrogant question to even ask.

I REALLY don't have to be kind when asking my question.

Then you shouldn't be surprised when you don't get kindness and civility in response.