The Road to 5.0

[Lauront]

I'm kind of curious as to how the Shadowhunter has been so effective at locating and exterminating the Ascians since they tend to be very subtle with their methods for the most part.

They're not just subtle - the Overlords in particular would be a menacing threat to anyone who isn't the WoL and protected by Hydaelyn/benefiting from a more powerful Echo than most. More than a match for Gaius, for sure. It's important not to forget that the only reason we're able to rival the Overlords is that we're quite similar in some ways. Unless he and his posse - since it isn't just him - have some means of detaching them from their host without the need to engage them directly. It could also be that there is a "traitor" in their midst. Elidibus had said to Varis he wasn't too bothered about the dark robed Ascians being removed. What if they have become more obstacle than aid to Elidibus?


TBH, there's a lot of questions floating about, because if you think about the repercussions of Zodiark not being evil, and the majority of Ascians being wrong about what it takes to revive him, it would imply that they were acting much like the WoL on the First, i.e. interpreting his wishes as they saw fit, and in the process furthering the expansion of darkness, until they realised you can go too far with it, with some just wanting to see the world burn. They are creatures of darkness, so destruction is in their fiber.

Where I think things get messy is that the voice communing with the WoL appeared after Y'shtola manipulated the device in the Steppes. I don't think it's coincidental. You then have to wonder, what is this device's true nature (perhaps it's more to do with the flood of aether than anything specific to the device), and if it is Zodiark's voice, why did he not just appeal directly to Elidibus? The Ascian echo must be connected to him in the same way ours is to Hydaelyn; so is he already apprised of matters, and now it's just a case of bringing the WoL on board? Is Elidibus, in turn, just trying to use a military confrontation as a means of proving a point? Furthermore, if we're wrong about Zodiark's nature, why has Hydaelyn never corrected our understanding of matters? Even just to say the Ascians are ignorant of what truly would be required to revive him. Yet, if they're correct, cooperation with him will have to be conducted on very cautious terms. I have a strong feeling that we may find out that most of the Overlords are wrong about Zodiark, and Elidibus is privy to this knowledge but has to act very carefully, lest he draw their ire and they question his status as Emissary. In that case, why is Solus different to the rest?

IMO, the fanfest was meant to mislead a little, in that the 'war' with the Empire will end pretty fast once it has served its purpose and brought you and Elidibus into contact. The main focus is going to be the twin calamities. I suspect our involvement in the Empire, for 5.0, will be just enough to deal with Solus and a proper visit to Garlemald won't be forthcoming till 6.0, when they can do the imperial territories - Ilsabard - more justice. Whether we are witnessing flashes of the future, or travelling to the First, or dealing with a calamity on the Source, the sequence in the trailer will probably be the reverse and follow on from the aftermath of the Ghimlyt Dark.

I'm eager to see if we will come across those creatures which the statues in Amdapor are based on. Maybe worlds seared by light aren't that bereft of some life forms, after all.

I'm kinda ready for SE to completely mess with our understanding of Zodiark and Hydaelyn.

As an interesting little aside, that "throw wide the gates" line is said by Loffrey in the Orbonne Monastery Vaults in FF:T. They don't typically tie raid content to the MSQ, but I just found that tidbit intriguing what with Orbonne coming in 4.5.

[Theodric]

As an interesting little aside, that "throw wide the gates" line is said by Loffrey in the Orbonne Monastery Vaults in FF:T. They don't typically tie raid content to the MSQ, but I just found that tidbit intriguing what with Orbonne coming in 4.5.

I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Return to Ivalice ends up being mandatory to advance the MSQ's. Or, at the very least, it'll have major changes to dialogue based on whether or not it has been completed. More inspiration taken from the Ivalice games is always a good thing and so far the preview of the upcoming expansion has already brought forth major Ivalice vibes.

Viera being the most obvious...followed by the Nu Mou. It won't be a straight up retelling of the Ivalice tales, of course, but there will likely be enough similarities in regards to the core plot points - just with a twist or two unique to FFXIV to make it fit.

[Lauront]

Yup, I'd be very pleased if they did find a way to tie the two together.

[Fenral]

I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Return to Ivalice ends up being mandatory to advance the MSQ's. Or, at the very least, it'll have major changes to dialogue based on whether or not it has been completed.

NAH. It's only about as relevant to the MSQ as CT was, and, well, yeah (but if the leaks are true...). We might even go an entire version without it coming up again, though they have gotten better about that lately.


Which is not to say that there's any strong reason it can't happen, per se, without bringing in my most-loathed argument of "side vs. main content" (which has no place in discussions of world and story details, IMO), just that our current precedents have shown that it probably won't even if it really probably should.

[Rocl]

My kingdom for more cross pollination of sidestory characters. Cid and, like, Godbert being the only people who appear in multiple scenarios regularly is criminal.

[Iscah]

My kingdom for more cross pollination of sidestory characters. Cid and, like, Godbert being the only people who appear in multiple scenarios regularly is criminal.

Yes please, so much.

I really want to see more job quests get anchored back in the main story. Y'mhitra got her moment in the MSQ that didn't rely on the summoner quests at all, and I'd like to see similar things done with other characters. (And not like Oboro's awkwardly-wedged-in cameo in Stormblood.)

One that sticks out badly for me during Heavensward is that Stephanivien is right in place to have at least a few lines. He says in the first MCH quest that his designs are partly based on Cid's magitek, so presumably they've been working together at some point (during HW if not before). And then Biggs and Wedge are building their experimental airship right behind him - he should be fascinated by it.

I also feel like he would have been friends with Haurchefant - they were neighbours, similar ages and personalities, and if nothing else the description for the wind-up Haurchefant minion indicates that it was Stephanivien that built it as a tribute - and while I realise it would be too difficult to mention it within the temporally-flexible MCH quests, there's a missed opportunity. You have to tell Cid about Haurchefant's death while Stephanivien is standing right nearby, within hearing range but just out of camera shot. I really wish they'd shown his reaction - they didn't even need to give him any lines, just an /aback emote would be nice, and not require any familiarity with the character. Just a reminder that yes, these people know each other and aren't in their own little story bubbles.


I also really wish they'd used some more of the "known" nobles from the various quests as extras in the crowd at important events. The counts are there, Artoirel and Emmanellain are there.... and nobody we know from the other Houses could make it to the ceremony marking peace between man and dragon? Not even Francel, who doesn't even have the "trapped in a sidestory" issue keeping him out? He really should have been there.


The one other character I can think of that appears across multiple stories (though rather sparingly) is Carvallain. I'm not sure if he counts as an MSQ character or if he and Rhoswen are their own running subplot, but either way he turns up across that, CUL 55/65, AST 40 and cameos in one of the postmoogle quests, plus is 'unseen but involved' in FSH 45 and the start of the Stormblood NIN questline. And then there are the intermittent references to the missing son of the Count de Durendaire, scattered across sidequests, talk dialogue and sightseeing log entries... not that it's him, of course.


Meanwhile, something odd I noticed that may have been a fumbled cameo in post-ARR... when Y'shtola is spying on the Sahagin, she's accompanied by some Maelstrom guards - and one of them seems to be Curious Gorge from the warrior quests. Which would be great, except he turns up again as one of the 'drowned' soldiers fighting us when we try to stop Leviathan's summoning. It seems a very odd thing to get in there by accident, so did one person put it in as a deliberate cameo, and then someone else made the second cutscene and reused the NPCs not realising it was a specific character?


And something else I noticed - it seems the early game quests (pre-Lv15) are assumed to have happened regardless of which city you started in. I noticed that Fufulupa references events from the Ul'dah starting quests when you talk to him in post-ARR. (A bit of a pity in that case, as non-Ul'dah-starting players only get his initial "well-intentioned idiot" sidequest and none of his character development from that main story.)

[Iscah]

Back in ARR, and Ramuh certainly has some interesting things to say before and after his trial.

Copied out in full for the sake of context:

Thine aura betrays thee, servant of Hydaelyn.

Thou art the Bringer of Light... bane of Ifrit, Titan, Garuda, and Leviathan.

I am Ramuh, guardian of the children of the forest.

Thou tramples upon sacred soil, Bringer of Light. By what right doth man intrude in this sanctuary of the sylphs?

The Gridanians proffer peace? Their words are born of delusion - thine offer, an insult.

Thou speakest of harmony, yet carest naught for my children's desires. They did but wish to dwell beneath these boughs in solitude - yet even that was too much to ask of man.

Thus did they turn to me for succor. The sentence I pronounce upon thy kind is just.

Gridanian or Garlean, it matters not. The good intent of one excuseth not the misdeeds of the other.

Thy conflicts have brought naught but anguish and misery unto the forest. All blame doth lie within the darkness that resideth in the breast of man.

Whence sprung this calamitous seed? In the beginning, no such duality existed. Were light and dark given form when man was born?

It would explain much. Not least why strife and sorrow follow ever in thy wake. Thou canst not deny the urgings of thine own nature.

Knowing that thy mere presence here portendeth tragedy, wilt thou persist in this pretense of peacemaking?

[we show Ramuh the Levin Crystal]

Thou bearest the crystal which I bestowed upon my wayward charges. That they should entrust so precious a gift to thee...

Thou standest apart from thy kin. Thou art the Bringer of Light, aye... but there is something more in thee...

Very well, I shall consider thy proposal... shouldst thou survive my trial.

If thou wouldst champion the cause of harmony, I must have proof that thou art fit to play the role. Weather mine ire, and prove to me thereby that thou hast strength enough to stay the Darkness which threateneth to consume thee.

Yet if thou shouldst be found wanting, know that all men shall perish in the storm of my judgement!

Come to me, Bringer of Light. I shall await thee on the field of battle!

[battle at the Striking Tree]

I have taken thy measure, Bringer of Light.

And I judge thee a worthy champion. The task of excising the sin that hath taken root in man's heart is thine.

Shrink not from employing thy strength in service to the forest, and the wider realm beyond. Like hungering shadows do the enemies of harmony gather, and meekness will but feed them.

If man is to be delivered from the Dark, it shall be by thy guiding Light alone. Stray not from the path, for if thou dost, thy people shall be truly lost...

Critical questions:

- as an aetherial being, is Ramuh reliable in his knowledge of Light and Dark? Or does it rely on what they sylphs know when they summoned him? (And in that case, what do they know?)

- is the capitalisation-or-not of the words important?

- does he want us to know what he knows, or would he be deliberately obscure?

All blame doth lie within the darkness that resideth in the breast of man.

Whence sprung this calamitous seed? In the beginning, no such duality existed. Were light and dark given form when man was born?

Lower-case light and dark. Used in conjunction with man's good or bad actions - but also seems to have shades of reference to Hydaelyn and Zodiark.

Thou standest apart from thy kin. Thou art the Bringer of Light, aye... but there is something more in thee...

An early hint that we might not be purely representing Light?

If thou wouldst champion the cause of harmony, I must have proof that thou art fit to play the role. Weather mine ire, and prove to me thereby that thou hast strength enough to stay the Darkness which threateneth to consume thee.

Capital-D Darkness now... and while he may be referring specifically to "harmony" between man and sylph in the forest, it could have a deeper meaning.

If man is to be delivered from the Dark, it shall be by thy guiding Light alone. Stray not from the path, for if thou dost, thy people shall be truly lost...

"If man is to be delivered from the Dark" - technically leaves the door open for the reveal that man is not to be delivered from it, should the story go that way. Not that I'm sure it will.

And what is the path we must not stray from? Within the paragraph, and certainly context at the time, it's "stray not from the Path of Light" - but now, who knows.


I remain unconvinced for now that, even if we do become Warrior of Darkness, it's what we are supposed to do.



All this also reminds me of something way back in Lv24 MSQ when Frixio gifts us the Levin Crystal, and triggers one of our "crystal circle" visions:

FRIXIO
<gasp> This one was not mistaken about walking one.
Walking one is destined to walk a fate far crueler than this one can imagine.

It was ominous at the time... and it seems that we draw ever closer to it.

[Alleluia]

An early hint that we might not be purely representing Light?

Wonder if it ties in to Thordan's view of us just before he dies? The whole "What are you?!" moment he has as shadow blocks our face.

[Mansion]

Wonder if it ties in to Thordan's view of us just before he dies? The whole "What are you?!" moment he has as shadow blocks our face.

Kinda hard to tell for Thordan, because of how he was over-confident about the cause he fought for and his strength, and yet defeated by us.
There's also the question of how we will tilt to Warrior of Darkness, because even if we have a few indications about that fragment of darkness we have, MSQ could just present this shifting in an all different way ; like something purely narrative on how we become WoD out of the blue, without having to rely on something pre-existing.

But I would be delighted that all the small clues here and there in earlier MSQ would take a whole new meaning in the light of 4.5 and 5.0

[Anonymoose]

Wonder if it ties in to Thordan's view of us just before he dies? The whole "What are you?!" moment he has as shadow blocks our face.

This comes up a lot, but the people who made the scene just wanted a dramatic anime-esque angle where you were seen from the perspective of Thordan - a delusional zealot who thought his path was righteous. If, in retrospect, you choose to perceive this as foreshadowing, cool ~ it just wasn't intended by the cinematography of that cutscene.

Ramuh certainly has some interesting things to say

Apparently some of this is going to be coming back, eventually. But I think this fits well with the Gerun Oracles. The mortal world succeeds the world where Light and Dark were one. Question 1: Could the mortal world still exist if this distinction were in anyway unmade? Question 2: If Hydaelyn had wanted to make us creatures without Darkness, could She have? If so, why did She not? Yet, even Ramuh points out that Light is generally our best ally.

I really don't think wielding Darkness is going to mean we turn on Hydaelyn. I think it just means we're prioritizing the mortal world over the supremacy of Light. And if She loves us as much as She claims, I think She'll understand. I don't think the universe can exist without Genesis and Entropy. Creation cannot continue forever unchecked. Valar morghulis. And if we need to bring destruction to, say, empyrean horrors like in the trailer? So be it.

However, at the end of the day, if the world of man is to survive and grow and prosper, it needs continuous resources. Genesis needs a slight edge most of the time.

is Ramuh reliable in his knowledge of Light and Dark?

I can't wait to find the answer to this question. We can now be relatively confident that memory is an aetherial phenomenon in FFXIV (hence why "mind" and "spirit" are so frequently interchangeable in translation, it's a Japanese thing, I think, lol). We can also surmise that aether has memory. What was the being that has become Ramuh that he recalls such things? Or were such things infused into him because the sylphs believe him to be intelligent?

My pet theory is that the being we now know as Ramuh was once a man - a Bearer of the Light - who retired and lived in the wood and gained a reputation as a wise and powerful sage. In time, he befriended the sylphs and left them with memories of the old man in the wood and the god he served, the god many would claim he was the representative of on Hydaelyn: Rhalgr. He would leave them his Crystal of Light in death, and over the years things just...merged. A friend to the sylphs became a divine messenger, and in time the sylphs would take up this god, this "Ramuh," as their own.

I remain unconvinced for now that, even if we do become Warrior of Darkness, it's what we are supposed to do.

To a degree, me, too. However, I'm a big fan of recursion; when an adventurer doesn't happen by happy coincidence to fight their enemies in ascending order or strength, but that fighting problems without addressing their origin merely moves the imminent threat to a higher order. Every victory sets the stage for a greater battle.

Hypothetically, let's say fighting Zenos!Elidibus, for example, saves Ala Mhigo, butp ushes the threat to a higher order - beckoning the fatal supremacy of Light. Say by wielding Darkness, we can save the world of man, but say this pushes the threat to a higher order and sets the stage for the resurrection of Zodiark Himself. The world of man forced to finally confront (whether it be Zodiark or his Agents or what have you) the final threat in terms of the war between Light and Dark. Good.