Hoarding Houses - Sometimes a Depressing Sight (a rant)

[Jojoya]

This is still an SE made problem, and the only solution is to make housing an infinite resource rather than a finite one. Until people focus on pushing for that, SE will continue to do nothing while we all fight about everything else, thoroughly distracted.

I don't know that infinite housing is the correct solution. Part of what can make things desirable is scarcity.

Better to have a dual system.

First, a fully instanced system (not the current apartment system) that guarantees each player and FC one plot of their choosing. If the farm mentioned at Fan Fest isn't intended to give all players access to the gardening system regardless of house ownership, then gardening could get incorporated into the new instanced housing. Same with FC workshop. Outdoor item limits could be increased greatly for these instanced plots since the game would no longer be trying to also load items from neighboring houses. Being fully instanced, there would be no need for demolition so a player (or even a FC) could take a 6 month break and come back to their plot the same as they had left it. It's not a truly infinite system, it's just one that's flexible as the size of the player base changes.

Second, the ward system converted into a competitive system for those who consider housing their end game and are willing to pay for the privilege of obtaining additional plots. Purchases would be personal only since FCs would have their guaranteed plots with workshop access.

There would still be requirements and limits for the sake of fair competition. The player would have to have a character on a world that meets level and rank requirements to purchase and maintain houses on that world (no transferring one character world to world to buy up houses then leave the houses in the hands of a level 1 character). They could still put a limit on the number of ward houses that could be owned by an account (perhaps one per housing district per world). They could tighten demolition rules and/or add in monthly fees so ward houses are more likely to become available to other players instead of hoarded by a few.

This way housing is obtainable for everyone but still offers features to make it desirable as an end game for those who have a greater than normal interest in it.

[AriesMouse]

snip

Firstly, all I was saying is that these hoarders that people go out of their way to demonize mostly were doing no harm. Their intentions were not malicious, and many of them tried their hardest to do what they are passionate about in a way that hurt no one, and that worked well for a long time. No one cared, because it didn't effect anyone. I'm just trying to say, give them a little credit for at least trying to enjoy their hobby without getting in the way of everyone else, rather than spending so much time speaking about them as if they are the one true evil of housing. They aren't. SE is.

I'm not going to sit here and entertain the idea that 'house hoarders' are the root of all evil, or that what they do is somehow so morally corrupt that they need be punished. That just simply isn't the case. Many of them are simply people passionate about housing, for many it is their end game in ff14. They broke no rules, and they played the game fairly. The only solution is for SE to give enough houses for all, not to take any away. Punishing people for playing by the rules is never, under any circumstances, a good thing, which is exactly why they were grandfathered in. SE knows this, and agrees with it, and they made that very clear in their actions by allowing them to keep their houses. Demanding a change now is just, as stated, wasting time and keeping people distracted instead of actually just pushing for a better solution. When we stop turning on each other, and focus on SE, things will likely improve.

Second, the slippery slope argument isn't weak here, when again, I have seen people argue for many of the things I've listed. Do you think they will suddenly stop if the rules are changed an the grandfathered people get their houses removed? Not likely. The houses freed up will vanish in days, and then the problem will continue. Not enough houses. It won't change anything other than giving SE an sizable amount of PR damage.

You seem to think it is a minority group that is in favor of grandfathered people keeping their houses, but I think you're mistaken on that. This change would not be the same as the demolition timer, since that was mostly effecting players that weren't playing to free up a resource not being used. You're saying that people should have things taken away they are actively using, and spending tons of gil, and possibly real life money on from mog station. Apples and Oranges at this point. Also keep in mind that in order to have more than one house, you're paying a higher sub fee for that alt. In a sense, they are paying for that extra house.

At the end of the day, we need to rally together to push for better housing, and not fight so hard to screw each other over out of saltiness or spite. This isn't an issue of the "haves and have nots", it's an issue of SE sitting on their hands knowing there is a problem, but the lot of us not doing anything to make them actually fix it, because we're all too busy infighting.

Edit: This popped up while I was typing I guess.

snip.

I both agree and disagree. I honestly think that the scarcity thing is pretty awful, and is a big part of why the housing issues are happening. The fact that it's a finite resource is what makes flippers such a monster, honestly ones I think are a bigger problem than the 'hoarders' people love to hate. Add into that, there are a lot of people that hold houses and do literally nothing with them, simply because they are a trophy, a 'rare' item that they have, and someone else doesn't. I have literally spoken to people with this mindset, luckily they quit and lost their house.

That being said, I do really like the rest of your post. While I think everyone should be able to get a house for every character they level to meet the requirements, I do think the wards should be left as is, as more a competitive vanity thing, either for the lawn decor, or just that ward feel some people actually like. I personally could take it or leave it, and honestly, if it weren't for gardens, I would be perfectly happy not having a yard to worry about; interior decor is more my jam.

[Penthea]

Firstly, all I was saying is that these hoarders that people go out of their way to demonize mostly were doing no harm. Their intentions were not malicious, and many of them tried their hardest to do what they are passionate about in a way that hurt no one, and that worked well for a long time.

This would only be true if all hoarders were on dead servers to begin with. They are not. They are present in probably every server.

I did not say these people were malicious. Please do not put words into my mouth. I said they were greedy.

People who are malicious do things with the intention of hurting others. I don't think hoarders are malicious because they probably would have several houses even if the amount of plots was unlimited. They take things with the intention of having more stuff. Not with the intention of ruining someone's day. It just so happens that a side effect of having several houses affects other players negatively.

I'm not going to sit here and entertain the idea that 'house hoarders' are the root of all evil, or that what they do is somehow so morally corrupt that they need be punished.

Again putting words into my mouth. Please direct me to where I said they need to be punished for being morally corrupt. You'll find I said no such thing. I am saying they have more than their fair share of houses and this needs to change so the system will have more even distribution of housing among players. I am also saying they are not completely innocent because they are aware that they are hoarding a limited resource.

I also did not say hoarders are the root of evil. Maybe try reading my posts properly? I said all these issues root from SE because they made a bad housing system, and that players such as hoarders and house flippers made a bad system worse. I'm not sure how saying SE is the root of these problems means I'm saying hoarders are the root of evil.

That just simply isn't the case. Many of them are simply people passionate about housing, for many it is their end game in ff14

So the rest of us who don't own several houses aren't passionate either? Are we less passionate because we have less houses? And what of those whose passions are denied partially because of hoarders? Do their passions not matter?

Also the person I mentioned in my first post is most certainly not a passionate decorator given that their seven plots have been mostly barren for at least a year, and are owned by characters that have nothing above lvl 50. Most of the plots don't even have something as basic as aetherytes. Resetting a housing timer and having loads of houses doesn't automatically qualify someone to be considered a passionate decorator.

They broke no rules, and they played the game fairly.

When I was in school we had a uniform. The girls found this unfair because the boys could wear trousers and the girls were stuck with skirts, so in the winter we girls were always colder. In protest the boys helped us by swapping their trousers for our skirts, so we wore trousers and they wore skirts to school. The teachers tried to punish us until they found that the rules did not explicitly state which gender should wear which. This example shows that not breaking the rules isn't the same as following them.

Just because you are able to do something does not mean that the intention is that you are allowed to. Our school clearly didn't want gender swapped uniforms, but they didn't consider that the wording of the rules would allow this to happen.

Considering that there is a very limited amount of plots in the game, it is clear SE didn't intend players to own several. If they had they either wouldn't have introduced housing or they would have introduced a different system in which the hoarding of one player couldn't possibly affect someone else. The fact that SE changed how many plots each player can have is a clear indication of this.

I suspect grandfathering has not yet been removed because SE later plan to introduce a system in which all characters can access the same private home. They have already expressed interest in this feature. They probably don't want characters to suddenly become cut-off from content, and I understand that. While I do want grandfathering removed, I don't want it done without all characters to be able to access the same private home. I am not so merciless to think that hoarders deserve to have characters completely cut off from content.

The only solution is for SE to give enough houses for all, not to take any away.

No...that is the only solution you agree with. It is not the only solution. There are several potential solutions to this problem.

However some require a massive amount of time and money, while others require very little. Some require changing the system completely, others only require a tweak. History has shown us SE is fond of giving us tweaks. Removing grandfathering would be a tweak. I would prefer a solution that benefits all equally, but as I said multiple times already in this thread, the likelihood of this is near zero. So I'm asking for an improvement in the form of a tweak, because it's actually possible.

Punishing people for playing by the rules is never, under any circumstances, a good thing

Am I to take from this that you are against a demolition system in any form? That you are against a system designed to remove a limited resource from inactive players/characters, so that those who are actually active can enjoy it instead?

Sure you can say that grandfathered players are active. But in the case of the player I mentioned in my first post, I think most people would struggle to argue how characters that have nothing above lvl 50 and are only logged in to reset a timer on a barren house are active characters. If there was no demolition timer these characters would never be logged in.

Do you think they will suddenly stop if the rules are changed an the grandfathered people get their houses removed? Not likely. The houses freed up will vanish in days

You saying the freed up houses would vanish in days is you admitting that there are players without houses who would use houses that hoarders have. Well done, you have actually admitted hoarders are blocking players from content. Glad we agree.

and then the problem will continue. Not enough houses. It won't change anything other than giving SE an sizable amount of PR damage.

Given that there are a pair of players on Mateus who own an entire ward...removing grandfathering would certainly change things for many players on that ward alone. Never mind all the other houses grandfathered in every other ward in the entire game.

I agree that removing grandfathering won't fix the true heart of the issue, which is the amount of houses. But this is going to be a problem as long as SE hold on to the ward system. So if they're not going to let go of that system, well the best we can do is ask for changes that more evenly distribute houses. Removing grandfathering would help with this.

At the end of the day, we need to rally together to push for better housing, and not fight so hard to screw each other over out of saltiness or spite.

I completely agree but as I said in another post...where are your threads asking for this instead? Would it not be a better use of your time to draw attention to what you think are better ideas, instead of bumping a thread you disagree with? The best way to make my thread die is to stop posting here, and present your ideas in your own thread.

[AriesMouse]

snip

Firstly: I have not put words in your mouth. I've stated opinions/commentary based on what you, and people on your side of the face on the matter, have said. It's based on the nuance, the felt intention, and how the situation is perceived based on what others have said, not just you. It's not all about you, even if your post is the one I quoted.

Second: Also, since you seem so hung up about the concept of not putting words in people's mouths, maybe practice what you preach? I never said other home owners weren't passionate, I simply said that many of the hoarders were, implying that that passion is part of why they own more than one house. It's a factor, but not something that they alone feel. It is very sad that there are hoarders that do not decorate their houses. Honestly, whether it's one house, or several, I think if a house isn't being used, it should be forfeit, and given to someone that will use it. I see far too many houses that sit untouched, empty and uncared for, for months on end. I feel like that is the bigger problem than people with more than one.

Third: I never said there wasn't a problem with housing. We've always agreed on that, we just disagree on the one viable solution. I personally would rather see enough houses for everyone to have one on each of their characters than see houses taken away from people that earned them. Also, the demo timer is an exception to the rule, as it is meant to target inactive players, people that aren't a factor in the game any longer. That rule makes sense.

Fourth: People have made threads on the matter, and it just turns into the same debate of the "haves and have nots" and the outcry that daddy SE takes away someone else's toys. I get that you want things to be fair, but I don't feel like taking things away from people is. I'm not going to just let that concept slip by and not oppose it. People disagree with the idea, and they are allowed to share that opinion, to show that, despite what some people say, not everyone holds that view point, and SE can see that in these threads, just like all the others.

Also, I am aware of the situation on Mateus, that is the only server I have ever played on since ARR, and I think it would be a tragedy to see that ward dismantled. Considering it's apartment building is pretty highly populated, the likes and kind messages in the message books, I think a good amount of the server agrees. Most of the people that are upset and salty are the people that got a free ride to the server, not any of the people that were on it when it was a quiet less toxic community.

[MaybeOliverB]

This would only be true if all hoarders were on dead servers to begin with. They are not. They are present in probably every server.

I did not say these people were malicious. Please do not put words into my mouth. I said they were greedy.

Oh we need to ask an entire server if it's okay to acquire more than a house? I'm sorry I didn't get the memo. Also sorry for putting in way more effort into housing that you do, not that you care since you haven't acknowledged that people like myself or the couple on Mateus went the extra mile(s) to acquire what we have.

Funny how you get upset with having people twist your words when you do the exact same thing.

[Penthea]

Most of the people that are upset and salty are the people that got a free ride to the server, not any of the people that were on it when it was a quiet less toxic community.

Woah, the phrasing here really reminds me of someone from a similar themed thread from ages ago.

This player owned several houses and they complained about players using free transfers because it drew attention to his house hoarding. He said that he deserved housing more on that server because he actually paid to transfer. He was constantly putting down players who "got free rides". It was textbook classism.

No clue if you're the same person, but your phrasing in this particular instance is very similar.

And I can't help but point out that while you accuse me of demonising house hoarders, you yourself have painted players who used free transfers as problematic.

Oh we need to ask an entire server if it's okay to acquire more than a house? I'm sorry I didn't get the memo.

If you ask SE right now the answer would be no more than one private home and one fc house.

Also sorry for putting in way more effort into housing that you do, not that you care since you haven't acknowledged that people like myself or the couple on Mateus went the extra mile(s) to acquire what we have.

I put in less effort because I own less houses? Seriously? I'm not on a dead server. I couldn't own an entire ward even if I wanted to. I was never in a position to put in the effort to get the maximum houses possible. Even if I had the gil cap this was impossible on Moogle during the time I have been there. Up until 4.2 the wards were constantly full.

Also lets not pretend that gil selling and buying isn't a thing, and lets not pretend that a lot of this gil wasn't spent on houses. Some of which may be hoarded. Not everyone who has a lot of gil put in a lot of effort.

[AriesMouse]

snip~

Fair, my wording could have been better, you're right there.

I'll be honest, while I am within the fair limits of home ownership, I am just a bit miffed with the attitude and hostility a lot of transfers brought to this server. These people got a great opportunity to come to a quiet server, to liven it up, and all they brought with them was grief. Rather than making best of things, they instantly set into complaining, bullying, and generally being massive thorns in the sides to the people that originated on the server. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't sort of salty about it. That being said, there are still plenty of people that came from those transfers that are amazing, the rare gems in the sea of salt from both sides at this point.

And again, I'm not directly saying you specifically/directly are demonizing people, I'm saying your stance, and the people that side with it, do. The perception comes across that way when you look at the over all picture, not just your one or two specific statements. I might not agree with you, but you do seem to me mostly reasonable/you do clearly care, you're not just slinging shade at people unprovoked. Not everyone on your side is that way though, and I tend to address the masses not just one. It's like fighting one political side with another, as awful a comparison as that is. One person can be reasonable, but the over all group mindset isn't.

[MaybeOliverB]

If you ask SE right now the answer would be no more than one private home and one fc house.

No, it would be one private and 8 FC houses. You must be new here.

I put in less effort because I own less houses? Seriously? I'm not on a dead server. I couldn't own an entire ward even if I wanted to. I was never in a position to put in the effort to get the maximum houses possible. Even if I had the gil cap this was impossible on Moogle during the time I have been there. Up until 4.2 the wards were constantly full.

Also lets not pretend that gil selling and buying isn't a thing, and lets not pretend that a lot of this gil wasn't spent on houses. Some of which may be hoarded. Not everyone who has a lot of gil put in a lot of effort.

I'm on gilgamesh and I got 27 houses. 20 of those houses are in the same ward/sub division. Just because you think it's impossible to acquire a ward on anything but a dead server doesn't make it true. Throwing in your silly RMT argument doesn't diminish my statement in any way. Whether its gil or time, players with houses in the two digits clearly have invested more into housing than you do, but you still refuse to believe it.

[Numenor1379]

My solution would be; SE to enforce the 1 personal and 1 FC house per SE account while also unlocking house use for characters on that account, and HEAVILY encourage current owners to relenquish their extra houses while grandfathering them in as current.

I'd love to say SE should just take the houses, but that is wrong. Encouraging players to voluntarilly relinquish their extra houses is the only fair way to do it. Perhaps give them a free subscription month per house, or triple the in-game value... etc.

[Penthea]

Fair, my wording could have been better, you're right there.

I'll be honest, while I am within the fair limits of home ownership, I am just a bit miffed with the attitude and hostility a lot of transfers brought to this server. These people got a great opportunity to come to a quiet server, to liven it up, and all they brought with them was grief.

Rather than making best of things, they instantly set into complaining, bullying, and generally being massive thorns in the sides to the people that originated on the server. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't sort of salty about it. That being said, there are still plenty of people that came from those transfers that are amazing, the rare gems in the sea of salt from both sides at this point.

I think they're salty because they left servers where wards were constantly hopelessly full and they couldn't hope to afford to buy a house from a house flipper, or they didn't want to risk their account by doing so. Many of these people couldn't access housing for years. They left to find greener pastures, where there would be houses available that they could finally enjoy...and then they find an entire ward is taken up by two people. It can't be a nice feeling to leave one hopeless housing situation, and then be presented with something like this.

However I do understand your position. Your server was small, but it was chill. Now you have a lot of new people throwing around their bitterness and in some cases very harsh words. While they may be justified in feeling crappy, this doesn't change that it creates a negative atmosphere in what was once a pleasant quiet place.

As for the pair on Mateus who bought their houses while the server was dead:

It is a shame to see unused content, and it is a shame to see a server with sparse activity. While I disagree with grandfathering, I will not deny the people who took over that ward achieved something quite remarkable and did breathe life into an otherwise barren place.

I have said before, though I'm unsure if I said so in this thread, that I am more willing to understand hoarders who actually put in the effort to decorate their plots. I completely understand wanting to decorate much more than the current limit can offer you. I own the current maximum of every type of housing on my main, I have fc rooms and apartments on all my alts and I am tenant to two homes that I have put a great deal of time in to. I freaking love decorating. I completely get why people want several houses. I would love to have more houses.

But players like the one I mentioned in my first post make me so angry. Those seven plots are borderline abandoned and the characters that own them aren't being played. This isn't a player who is passionate about housing. Every time I see those plots I can't help but think of other players who could find great joy in decorating them. I said it's a shame to see unused content, and those houses that player owns are exactly that.

And again, I'm not directly saying you specifically/directly are demonizing people, I'm saying your stance, and the people that side with it, do. The perception comes across that way when you look at the over all picture, not just your one or two specific statements. I might not agree with you, but you do seem to me mostly reasonable/you do clearly care, you're not just slinging shade at people unprovoked. Not everyone on your side is that way though, and I tend to address the masses not just one. It's like fighting one political side with another, as awful a comparison as that is. One person can be reasonable, but the over all group mindset isn't.

Thank you for saying that I am reasonable despite your disagreement with my stance.

I do know the kind of people you are on about because I have seen them say things like "you're a horrible person for owning so many houses, SE should remove your account" and I strongly disagree with expressing this issue in this manner. Most of the time I would only go as far as to say that hoarders are greedy, because they are aware that they are potentially depriving other people of content. My personal opinion of who they are as a person stops there. It's only players, like the one I mentioned who was very elitist about housing regarding "free rides" who I would say is not a good person. And possibly the person who very recently accused me of having less passion for housing simply because I own less houses...like wow...quantity doesn't automatically equate to passion or effort. I felt as if he means to say my opinion matters less because I have less houses.

I understand why people might think my stance is demonising, because I am not putting house hoarders in a good light. I am saying that they are greedy, and this isn't a positive thing to say. But the unfortunate truth is their ownership of more than the current limit is causing problems for other people, and they know it. This needs to stop. Ideally SE should give us unlimited housing in some form...but as I already said before it's not likely.

I did say in my first post that grandfathering should be removed or to have a system in which hoarding wouldn't negatively affect anyone...but people have been debating with me as if I only said the former and not the latter.

It is not my intention to demonise anyone. My intention is simply to increase how many people have access to housing. That's it. However arguing for this does require stating what I think is an issue, and it's basically impossible to call something an issue without putting any negative labels on it.

I have had my house for two years and I still haven't forgotten the hopelessness of seeing the full wards. I have been leading my fc for over a year and I haven't forgotten the difficulties we had with having a cottage. Personally I'm doing bloody great with housing right now. My fc and I have everything we want and need. But not everyone is in this position and most of the time through no fault of their own. There are ways to increase the amount of players as fortunate as I am without asking SE to do something they probably never will...so here I am in this thread.

And for the person who thinks I put in less effort because I own less houses: I worked for over a year to get one house. I lvled all my crafters and gatherers with the sole intention of fueling my love for housing through crafting furniture and making gil. I camped the aetherytes for freaking months. I watched three houses I ran to be bought right in front of me. I experienced lost opportunities and hopelessness due to the broken system but I never gave up. My perseverance paid off because I ended up with enough gil to buy any class of medium house, and I had the incredible luck of ending up on one of my two dream plots. I literally jumped around the room and danced when I got my house. People who bought houses on sparsely populated servers cannot possibly imagine the joy and relief that I felt when I finally got a house in a server with constantly full wards.

My solution would be; SE to enforce the 1 personal and 1 FC house per SE account while also unlocking house use for characters on that account, and HEAVILY encourage current owners to relenquish their extra houses while grandfathering them in as current.

I'd love to say SE should just take the houses, but that is wrong. Encouraging players to voluntarilly relinquish their extra houses is the only fair way to do it. Perhaps give them a free subscription month per house, or triple the in-game value... etc.

I agree that some form of compensation would be a good incentive to relinquish plots. After reading this I am now inclined to think that those who have houses revoked if and when grandfathering is removed should be compensated, because the fact is something they own, and are using in some manner however small, is being taken away from them. It goes without saying that they should get a full refund of the cost of the plot and the house (they are bought separately). But there should be additional compensation. Perhaps some crysta for the mog station, or as you say some free game time. Maybe even both.

This is quite different to demolition because grandfathered players are actually using their houses to some degree, so the blow would really sting if their houses are taken away. The compensation should reflect this.