The Road to 5.0

[Fenral]

I've been operating under the assumption that it's the direct power of Hydaelyn/Zodiark inherent to that dimension from the split plus or minus the effects of empowered agents.

Yeah, sure, but measured based on what exactly? How do we know which actions push the balance which way? A Scouter?


"Hydaelyn's power... it's... Over 9000!?!"
*switches to DRK*

[KageTokage]

I'm kind of curious as to how the Shadowhunter has been so effective at locating and exterminating the Ascians since they tend to be very subtle with their methods for the most part.

I could see his efforts combined with Thancred's propganda scheme potentially leading to a much larger scale cullingo, which could explain the impending threat of a flood of light.

The thing I'm confused about is what we're supposed to do stop the Ascians without eliminating them if their existence is key to maintaining a balance.

[Jyera]

I'm guessing whatever Thancred's plan was leads to a swift and radical shift in the balance Elidibus has been maintaining (while trying to set up Calamities) since he got here.

Alternatively, with the whole 'history must be changed [sic?]' note, the Calling could be sort of like a metaphysical emergency evacuation, plucking each of them out of the Source in advance of a known event horizon. I've interpreted the state of having been Called very tentatively and loosely as being like 'going todash' in the Dark Tower books--the person is still sort of in their homeworld, but they've glitched over to existence in a different one that overlaps it.

[Anonymoose]

Alternatively

Oh, gods, I'm not even ready to think beyond 4.55 again, yet, lol. The "hows" and "whys" of it. If I were to throw all caution to the wind and go with my gut based on what the story was so far - blind guessing and duck principles - it looks like some DBZ Trunks shenanigans where whatever future succeeds Ghimlyt must be thrown sideways with a stable loop warning from the future and protecting Hydaelyn Herself from being unable to stop the Flood of Light by wielding Darkness with good intentions. Some kind of future warning + will of Light incarnate kind of thing. Perhaps even involving being called to the First to prevent that world from being put into a condition that could cause the future Calamitous effects for the Source that we're being Trunksed with.

And then I sit back and think, "There's no basis for that. Aren't these areas more likely to be in Ilsabard? But then why wouldn't Yoshida just say that. What dooms hit us now versus which are threatened later? And what if Zodiark or Elidibus never had the worst intentions for specifically mortals or the world we fight for? That's the assumption, but if that assumption is wrong and we still stick to "Reins of history in the hands of man," how do we get there?

And then I go cross-eyed. Who knows how much of my old understanding I can salvage.

One day at a time, will re-evaluate in stages. Live Letter II. Trailer drop. 4.5. Paris teaser. 4.55. full Tokyo trailer. If I don't have a 5.00 trajectory by then I'll be worried. Though the writing team has been pretty unpredictable since 4.00, lol.

[ChaoticCrimson]

I'm kind of curious as to how the Shadowhunter has been so effective at locating and exterminating the Ascians since they tend to be very subtle with their methods for the most part.

Well given who he's strongly implied to be (and I have no reason to suspect he's anyone else other than Gaius), it's been more or less two whole expansions between his previous appearance before 4.3. I'm inclined to believe there's a lot he's been up to behind the scenes in all that time. It probably won't be too much longer until we learn what he's discovered about the Ascians since then. I'm anxious to see what 4.5 brings.

[Iscah]

What caught my attention was that Arbert's line could be taken a number of ways.

I took it as a "reins of history in the hands of man" kind of line at the time; Hydaelyn may have mortals' backs and Zodiark may hate them (allegedly), but the distinction between them is where we were born, and perhaps we cannot exist in a world without that distinction. Meanwhile, I was focused on how many people took it more or less as, "Hydaelyn's just as bad u juyz."

But ... clever ambiguity ... "Go ahead and take up Darkness if it suits your needs." Light doesn't mean good, and good doesn't mean infallible. Darkness can be a weapon wielded against evil, even if the will of Darkness does turn out to be evil (from our perspective). Whether it's the restoration of balance and Zodiark isn't so bad or we just need to fight the Light to prevent a flood while we prevent Zodiark's victory, it suits our needs.

The thing that caught my attention with Arbert's line is the follow-up.

ARBERT
We were blind to the truth once. So I tell you this, as one fool to another. Light, Dark, it doesn't matter. What matters is how you choose to use them.
We made our choice, and you see what came of it. So please... forge a better path. Seize a different fate.

Unless it's the English script being extra-ambiguous again... what was their "choice"? What came of it?

I don't feel like their original actions as Warriors of Light were really a choice.

On the other hand they chose to believe Elidibus and follow his oh-so-helpful advice that left them dead and playing villain in another world... although that ironically did lead to them finding another way to save their world that they probably couldn't have found without it - not because of Elidibus but because Urianger managed to outplay him.

So "find a better fate" than coming close to ruin and having to turn to Ascian advice to fix it? I don't know, it's complicated. Or maybe I'm just grasping at straws because I really really don't like this "become the Warrior of Darkness" business.


...okay, and somehow it's not until after writing all that, that it clicked it's "how you choose to use Light/Darkness".... which is back to that ever-so-nebulous question of what does it mean to wield Light or Darkness in pursuit of the greater good, and what relevance that even has to the Warriors of Darkness's actions in wielding their battle skills (which I don't consider to be directly allied to Light or Dark) in pursuit of driving the world to despair and calamity.

If it's just about wielding Light when we need to fight world-destroying Ascians and Darkness when we need to fight world-destroying Kuribu, that seems like something else entirely.

---

It's also taken this second time through to work out (somewhat) why Urianger is going through this complicated plot instead of just suggesting they work together in the first place. He doesn't suggest "killing the Warrior of Light directly" until he's already seen that Arbert still has his Crystal of Light. And presumably he has to keep up the act so Elidibus doesn't catch on until it's too late. Still, I'm not sure that last battle was actually necessary...

---

Another thing that keeps coming up at the moment (and is usually pointed out as an example that "Hydaelyn isn't entirely good") is Minfilia being possessed by Hydaelyn - but it seems that's a little more complex too.

MINFILIA
As the Ascians must serve as instruments of Zodiark's will, so too must others carry out the will of Hydaelyn.
But for the boon you have granted Her, She has grown strong enough to set me free, that I might serve as her emissary.
Your suffering, your sacrifice, your supplications - She has heard all. We will not let the First fall to Light.

So the "fully possessed" Word of the Mother seems like it might have been a half-stage - Hydaelyn called Minfilia to her, making use of Y'shtola's Flow spell rather than Her own power, but didn't even have enough strength to complete whatever process it is that establishes Minfilia as a 'free' emissary rather than absorbed into the mothercrystal.

---

It also occurs to me that it's the First Shard, closest to the Source, that is in danger of falling to the Light, and the Thirteen that fell to the Dark... I don't know if that's significant in a relevant sort of way, but interesting nevertheless.

---

Also the achievement title "No Retreat, No Surrender" - unless there's another significance I'm not aware of, that seems to be a shoutout to the movie The Book of Life.

[Anonymoose]

Unless it's the English script being extra-ambiguous again... what was their "choice"? What came of it?

It's not quite English being vague, it's just a lot to try to shove in there as a recap when he'd just given one. He's saying that he was so harsh on the Warrior of Light because they are behaving on the Source as the Warriors of Darkness once behaved on the First - naively. The Will of Light and the Will of Darkness are not in control of the energies of Light and Darkness in our worlds. Just because Hydaelyn loves you doesn't mean that blindly eradicating every particle of Darkness will work out for the best. Those energies cannot be overly imbalanced without catastrophic result. And just because Zodiark (allegedly) hates you doesn't mean that the force He represents is evil.

The Warriors of Darkness blindly destroyed every suspected enemy of Light and brought catastrophic imbalance to their world. Then they listened to an agent of Darkness's suggestion that their only options were void or Rejoining - either way the destruction of the world they loved, but one with hope for "rebirth". Listening to Hydaelyn would have been catastrophic, not that Hydaelyn had any ill intent. Darkness must exist, but its agents would have killed everyone on their world without a second thought to bring about the Ardor.

Do not fight for the Will of Light. Do not fight for the Will of Darkness. Fight for the world of man - for everything and everyone you hold dear. If it means wielding Light, so be it. If it means wielding Darkness, so be it. Forge your own path, control your own fate.

[Theodric]

I'm pleased to see more people coming around to the theories surrounding Hydaelyn that Lauront and I have been putting forth ever since Minfilia was first spirited away. It's going to be interesting to see the degree to which they hold true.

[Anonymoose]

I'm pleased to see more people coming around to the theories surrounding Hydaelyn that Lauront and I have been putting forth ever since Minfilia was first spirited away.

I'm still of the belief that Hydaelyn cannot be trusted. <...> The imagery and actions surrounding her possession of Minfilia, however, definitely reminds me of a parasite though.

I've long said that I believe Hydaelyn is trustworthy, but flawed, and I've long left the door open for Zodiark to not be quite what He seems while pressing my belief that His agents, if accurately acting as a representation of His goals, must be cast down. I for one not "coming around" to the idea that She's the parasite Lahabrea made her out to be, and would be very uncomfortable with being (mis)represented as such. If anything, I'm more vehemently Team Hydaelyn and Team Elidibus is a Snake than ever, if for no other reason but because I enjoy riding that train off a cliff if that's where it goes.

I still believe that Minfilia consented. Minfilia knew Hydaelyn was weak, knew what she believed would befall our world if She died, and was eager to do everything she could for Eorzea's benefit, even sacrificing her life to act as Hydaelyn's voice to change the future. It wasn't this grand betrayal, kidnapping, and murder-by-Mothercrystal.

Debates about topics such as Hydaelyn's "trustworthiness" have been as specific as they have been bitter; very quick to write off everything they got wrong to cling to what can be spun as, look at me, I called it. For the record, I'd be very nervous for it to be assumed I have a dog in this race, lol. I'm here to have fun, to be supportive, to build community, and to celebrate writing that I enjoy.


EDIT: Apologies if this came off in any way as a specific call-out. It's not about any specific theories or people; it's the attitude of debate, not the popularity of its content. I'm still hyper-vigilant after About the Emperor led to me getting over a dozen in-game tells and Discord PMs lamenting the dragging of negativity from previous threads to make later ones especially hostile. The lore forum has never been subject to making things emotional and personal, even when debates went on for pages about the soundness of an idea.

[Theodric]

The comment wasn't aimed at you, nor does everything that goes against popular belief around these parts need to be some major controversy.