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  1. #111
    Player Seraphor's Avatar
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    Feb 2018
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    Character
    Seraphor Vhinasch
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Thayos View Post
    So basically, it's a minigame that utilizes past content.

    People, correct me if I'm wrong here... but MMORPGs ultimately boil down to three systems: Leveling, minigames, and endgames. Right? Anything that doesn't contribute to the current tier of progression (endgame) is a minigame. Sure, there are a few "but what abouts!" to consider, but generally speaking... if it's not endgame, it's a minigame. If you're not first, you're last.

    Not trying to hate on Blu here, but let's keep it real. If the bulk of Blu's gameplay is in obsolete content and a single arena where it plays solo, then that's not endgame, which means it's a minigame, and to try to call a minigame "battle content" is deceiving. That's like saying FFXIV has sports content because of that silly Golden Saucer minigame where you kind of shoot baskets.

    Also, is ANY of FFXIV's minigame content actually popular? Other than housing, which is still only marginally "popular" because so few people can actually own houses?
    I hate this attitude.
    I've been playing for well over a year now and I've never been completely up to date with current raids. I've had a blast playing through the entire MSQ, and each and every past raid tier, its been great and I've never felt the need to just rush to the end.
    According to this outlook, I've only ever played "minigames". That's just nuts. 90% of this game, or more, is not 'the current raid tier' and loads of people still play it all the time.
    Even Eureka is still packed. Content isnt "obsolete" just because its not the latest raid. This IS real content, its not "minigames".
    (5)

  2. #112
    Player
    Thayos's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Character
    Thayos Redblade
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 80
    According to this outlook, I've only ever played "minigames".
    I'm actually a lot like you. I'm rarely at the current savage-level raid tier; usually, I'm just riding the line of the latest NM raids. (Which is still endgame, just the lowest tier.)

    In Eureka, you can work toward gear that is useful in the highest levels of battle content. That makes it a form of endgame content, even if it's not THE game's primary endgame arena.

    I agree with you that many people overuse the word "obsolete" when talking about old content. I don't believe non-endgame content is obsolete; but it's definitely not endgame. Most of it becomes leveling content. Old 24-man raids and NM raids become useful for exp in roulettes (leveling) or for farming glamor gear and ponies (minigame). You can have fun doing that, but having fun doesn't mean you're doing endgame. (I, too, enjoy leveling, which is a reason I've always enjoyed FF games.)

    We can't honestly say though that "anything can be endgame," as someone did up above. That's just not correct. FFXIV's endgame is very clear and easily defined. As it stands, Blu's place in endgame is highly questionable. I doubt the job will have much long-term appeal if it has no place in endgame.
    (6)

  3. #113
    Player
    Melichoir's Avatar
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    Feb 2015
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    Uldah
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    Character
    Desia Demarseille
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Thayos View Post
    Shtaaaaaap.

    Sorry, but that's entirely wrong. Endgame is endgame, and we all know what that means. Your own personal endgame might be one of FFXIV's minigames, but minigames are not FFXIV's endgame. FFXIV's endgame is progression content with rewards at or near the edge of the current iLevel cap.

    The argument could be made that fishing is more of a leveling system than a minigame, but leveling isn't endgame, either. Only endgame is endgame. In MMORPGs, endgame systems have some kind of group/shared dynamic. Solo activities you do at the level cap are just higher-level minigames.
    Im making a distinction between "End Game" and "End Tier", because those are two different things. The common point people say about end game is in direct relationship to CURRENT RAID CONTENT. But this is not always the same. For some people, their 'end game' differs. If you never raid, does that mean you never reached the end game? If all you wanted to do was craft and gather (which some players have), do you have no end game? For players who are focusing more on FC management, owning a house, or Glamours, do they have no "end game." How bout people who just want to see the end of a classes story line, do they have no "end game". What about those who just want all classes 70? No End game? Or how about this: Do Raiders have no end game in comparison of those who are completionists? End game just refers to the stopping point, and may vary by player to player. Most people, by tradition, view your definition as "End Game," but it is not everyone perception.



    Im being specific here because Raiders need to understand that not all content is for them (one of the issues Im seeing with the whole BLU thing). Hence why there can be many "end Games." IF you take this argument that end game means Prog, then that means that Raiders should and will dictate how this game is played. Their opinion weighs more than people who dont raid. You dont like something the raiders do? Tough, its the end game. Git Gud. Now I would hazard youve been around the forums long enough to know, with certainty, that there are people who dont want the game defined by Prog.

    Whether or not you agree with me is irrelevant in the face of hte fact the game allows players to pick and choose what to do. End Tier Raids are not the only "End Game". It depends on how content is set up.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aerlana View Post
    Snip Snip.
    Look at fisherman. The only spear available to fishermen currently is lvl 60. This should pretty much tell you that fisherman as a job has less impact on the current raid tier than any gathering profession. Furthermore, from what I can see, there is only 1 recipe at current level that is useful for raid tier (Salmon Muffin).

    Considering, as I said in my post, that this game is based on a lvling system, yeah its linear and "grindy", but that doesnt mean that BLU will end up being similar. What is meant is that getting experience may differ for BLU than our current classes. It may be the same. And you dont know this. You can assume, if youd like, and safe money is you are right, but since theyre doing new things, How you reach cap and what not may change. This is what is meant by how you interact with dungeons. How you interact with the existing structure matters. It may be a different experience. Only playing the class will you know.

    Youre argument about "Impacting OW content" is pretty much validating mine. Your initial statement is that it wouldnt "fill the open world". Now its "Yeah itll impact things, but then what about after."

    So what youre saying is how the game (and MMOs) generally progress. The difference here is that as a xpac progresses, it becomes less and less focused on OW. Everything is accessed from DF and PF. The focus shifts to more dungeons, less world and exploration. BLU, however, will have people running around in teh OW to fulfill getting the monster quests. Is it going to be a vibrant world? Probably not, but it might be better than now. Again, have to see. Also, theyve already said that the lvl cap will increase over the xpac. So this means that over time, youll see people in higher lvl zones most likely. It's not stuck at 50 and thats it.

    Now as for the gem about Balance - Youre kinda wrong here and youre doing it purely on assumptions. Is balance hard, no not really. Its super easy!! After all, 11 did it! Hmm, could it be that the Devs, you know professionals who do this for a living and who are also rational people might have considered how 11 did it and if it would be possible in XIV? HMMMMMMMMMM.

    Im being flippant because your response is foolish because its like you do not even consider anything beyond your "perceptions." (cant wait for someone to chime and say the same about me.) Let me break it down for you.

    Casters are all, basically, the same at an extremely simplified level. You press a button, a magic skill happens. What differentiates them is PLAY STYLE. SMN plays different than BLM which plays different than RDM. They all have their OWN playstyles, yet accomplish the same thing. The common argument being made is that the playstyle of BLU is "Learning monster skills". But that ISNT a play style, thats a gimmick. It's a facet that sets it apart lorewise from other casters, but not actually playwise. The Playstyle DIFFERENCE is how it incorporates those learned skills and why those skills are "special" compared to the other 3. Knowing that you are supposed to be able to solo content, this would imply that the Skills from Monsters are substantially more powerful - either in Damage, Utility, or Spread. These factors would alter HOW BLU is played. If you can solo content, it means that you arent reliant on party set up. You dont need a tank to tank, or a healer to heal. You dont need to coordinate CDs. All the things party would do, youd do yourself. This would, as I said, imply power. It would also mean you wouldnt be focused on learning rotations or priorities. The pragmatic way a BLU would play is to have hte skills be available and you use judgement on how theyre used depending the situation. Comboing and chaining those skills to accomplish by yourself what a party would do. This would be its playstyle.

    And there lies the issue. It's playstyle under these speculations would not lend itself to party play without it being inherently OP. Since the skills would require rebalancing, this would mean stripping htem of Utility, Damage, and Spread to make sure they fall more in line with other casters. That means, many of the skills would end up being reskinned versions of previous skills. Instead of Fire 1, you have 1000 needles. does same damage, just looks different. Because theyre weaker now, and would prevent them from being in Solo play, this would necessitate the inclusion of rotation/priority system, otherwise the class would be a caster who just spams 1 attack over and over and not have any actual play style. With the inclusion of a rotation/priority system, this takes focus away from the Gimmick, homogenizing the class with the other casters.

    The solution proposed is "Just make bosses immune to certain skills" or "Dumb down teh skills in party play." Both require two separate combat systems then for one class. If you have skills that are "dumbed down in party" that would end up being teh same situation as mentioned above regarding balance. If bad breath, as an exmaple, dots up the target with status effects, does good damage and is wide, if you make the boss CC immune, it just becomes a matter of a wide AoE attack. If a lot of spells end up in this venue and need to be dumb downed, it makes it more like other casters, except without a play style. Which would need to be implemented, which would mean priority/rotation systems, which would mean that getting monster skills is nothing but an illusion of choice. This then just makes a caster that is only BLU in name. This wasnt what people were asking for.

    See where a lot of us are getting at?

    Then using individual attacks which arent part of the game as examples of things not being 100% translations. Let me ask you this: Would Paladin be Paladin without a shield? Would Paladin still be Paladin if they didnt have Shield Slam?

    See the point? just cause one skill isnt here doesnt mean the identity of the class is nixed. Also, try doing O12S as a WHM without doing any job quests after you become a WHM. See how many statics want to bring you. You need your full skill set to engage in the "End Game". But you dont want to raid? See how long you stay in parties doing Primals. Or running dungeons. People get kicked for not using skills they have. What makes anyone think people wont get kicked for not even having those skills?
    (1)

  4. #114
    Player
    Ceanaorsa's Avatar
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    Jan 2015
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    Character
    Ceana Orsa
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 54
    instead of "minigames" could simply call it "side content"

    The main content (PvE / PvE HL) and side content (deep dongeons, eureka, triple triad etc etc)

    Quote Originally Posted by Melichoir View Post

    The solution proposed is "Just make bosses immune to certain skills" or "Dumb down teh skills in party play." Both require two separate combat systems then for one class. If you have skills that are "dumbed down in party" that would end up being teh same situation as mentioned above regarding balance. If bad breath, as an exmaple, dots up the target with status effects, does good damage and is wide, if you make the boss CC immune, it just becomes a matter of a wide AoE attack. If a lot of spells end up in this venue and need to be dumb downed, it makes it more like other casters, except without a play style. Which would need to be implemented, which would mean priority/rotation systems, which would mean that getting monster skills is nothing but an illusion of choice. This then just makes a caster that is only BLU in name. This wasnt what people were asking for.

    Getting 2 totally different set of skills (and different gameplay) on 1 job already exists on FFXIV, nothing new. in fact, the BLU would end to getting 3. It would be nothing new on FFXIV to get specific skills depending on where you are. . .

    Also, what the matter with what you point.
    If the blu get "dumpdown" skills for raid content, but his "fully" skills for Open World and the carnival content, all would be ok. We would have the "real" Blue mage, and a blue mage that fit in raid content.

    in this case, the BLU would be far better handle in FFXIV than other jobs (because ALL jobs get cut from part, sometime great part of what they really are. i love the DRK selfmutilate personnally... ... but ok, not in FFXIV i understand... )


    this topic list what 9 jobs in FFXIV lost. And not "small things" it is what make their identity in other FF... and lost it to fit FFXIV playstyle.
    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ted-Job-System
    (3)
    Last edited by Ceanaorsa; 11-21-2018 at 08:26 AM.

  5. #115
    Player Seraphor's Avatar
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    Feb 2018
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    Seraphor Vhinasch
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    So youre arguing semantics?

    How about this then: Endgame isnt the most important part of the game, or where most of the playerbase is focused.
    I dont think you can disagree with me on that, because like me, you've never played endgame.

    How about this?
    Blue Mages Masked Carnivale, at level cap, rewards you with current tomestones.
    Now you can play blue mage, while gearing up your raiding class.
    This seems very feasible, does this seem like a decent compromise?
    (0)

  6. #116
    Player
    Elerus's Avatar
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    Nov 2018
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    Character
    Elerus Irlith
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Thayos View Post

    We can't honestly say though that "anything can be endgame," as someone did up above. That's just not correct. FFXIV's endgame is very clear and easily defined. As it stands, Blu's place in endgame is highly questionable. I doubt the job will have much long-term appeal if it has no place in endgame.
    I agree. I'm not much of a raider myself due to limited free time thanks to a very busy work schedule (not unusual for me to work 60-80 hour weeks). Point being when I played WoW I had to come to the terms that there is an endgame and it was and is raiding. It's where a lot of development time, money, and assets are placed. It's where the best gear with new models goes, and it's where storylines are resolved (usually with a "now go kill the thing in its castle/fortress/interdimensional spaceship").

    Likewise FF also has an endgame and it is raiding. There's nothing wrong with side content or optional content, but if you want the best stuff and to engage in the climax of MMO (Massive Multiplayer) content you've gotta dip your toes into raiding.
    (1)

  7. #117
    Player
    Optee's Avatar
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    Lei Lei
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Thayos View Post
    But that is literally what endgame is, LOL. It's not called "side game" or "mid game."
    I realize my lack of explanation is confusing my apologies. You basically defined endgame prior to this as mini games if they didn't do group content at cutting edge content in terms of dungeon running/raiding. I am stating that it doesn't have to be just either those two "forms" only. We should be trying to redefine not only what endgame content is but how you get to it and when you get to it. If I reach endgame crafting but not endgame raiding I am not suddenly not doing endgame content just a different form of endgame content in the middle of another endgame progression.



    Quote Originally Posted by Thayos View Post
    You mentioned GW2, which actually in the past few years implemented endgame raids because its lack of real endgame was so heavily criticized. GW2's "endgame" was basically a bunch of leveling systems with some free-for-all raids that were chaotic and not much fun. (Hence the implementation of more traditional raids.)
    Actually they added it because people kept asking for it alongside their activities because it was the only endgame they didn't have. They had PVP, crafting, collections, dungeons (fotm still is a dungeon), open world content at the end game level but in GW2 attempt to show that endgame was more than raiding they left it out, now it's just another form of endgame. It was criticized for not having endgame by the MMO community of players who only see raiding as endgame and nothing else. The same self people who unfortunately keep the MMO genre the only genre to not develop in 10+ years. A stubborn lot that don't wish to challenge their world view of what an MMO or endgame is. But let me also mention another game that focused on just 1 form of endgame (Dungeon Running and Raiding) that didn't last very long... Wildstar. So as far I see it one game got through to some people and challenged what endgame is successfully and one didn't. One is adding more endgame content and one just closed it doors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thayos View Post
    Look... I'm not a hardcore raider. I barely run savage (haven't in months), and haven't even touched the most recent Ex primals. (My midcore static fell apart months ago.) But let's be real and not dance around what endgame in FFXIV is or isn't.
    I am a raider that's pretty much my favorite form of endgame in MMOs (I enjoyed my stay in GW2 but no raiding endgame was why I turned to FF14 because it didn't offer what I liked the most at the time). But I am also a crafter and an achievement hunter thus I want my endgame experience to include those as well. I am not dancing around what endgame is or isn't, just that you (the general you as well) have latched onto it's just this and this only. And if Wildstar is any indication, just that alone is detrimental thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thayos View Post
    We don't know everything about blu yet. I don't believe it's been confirmed that Blu can't raid with premades... so maybe, with the right configurations, Blu will have a place at the endgame table. For now, though, all we really know is Blu is designed for leveling in old areas and participating in a high-level minigame which seems to do nothing to progress the job any closer to endgame activities.
    TBH I have no stake in this BLU (rage hahaha) discussion until the system comes out and I can test it I can neither say it's a good idea or a bad one. It's different to FF14's job introduction for sure, we have no real information as to what BLU will be allowed to do once it reaches the final level cap or when the final level cap even is for the next expansion. We have no information at all as to what the next expansion will even bring to the table atm, however I am curious as to what it could potentially do. Until then I can't accurately asses what this new battle system or SE's plan wishes to achieve. I just dislike people being told their endgame isn't real endgame or the latching onto MuH eNdGaMe concept that doesn't push boundaries or accept possibilities for a better experience.

    So no personal hate on you, just the mindset. :)
    (1)
    Last edited by Optee; 11-21-2018 at 08:49 AM. Reason: words how are they spelled?

  8. #118
    Player
    whiskeybravo's Avatar
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    Whiskey Bravo
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Melichoir View Post
    Whether or not you agree with me is irrelevant in the face of hte fact the game allows players to pick and choose what to do. End Tier Raids are not the only "End Game". It depends on how content is set up.
    False. Just because you've chosen to "end" your progress in the the game at a certain point does not change where the game actually ends. You're "end game" may only be to complete every entry in the sightseeing log, but that doesn't make the sightseeing log in and of itself "end game". You can't just go changing the definitions of words to fit your argument, well you can, but everyone else has the right to correct your inappropriate usage of the term. "Endgame" is defined as the final stage of game. Currently, this is Alphascape V4.0 (Savage). If you're not there, you're not at endgame.
    (4)

  9. #119
    Player
    Optee's Avatar
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    Character
    Lei Lei
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by whiskeybravo View Post
    False. Just because you've chosen to "end" your progress in the the game at a certain point does not change where the game actually ends. You're "end game" may only be to complete every entry in the sightseeing log, but that doesn't make the sightseeing log in and of itself "end game". You can't just go changing the definitions of words to fit your argument, well you can, but everyone else has the right to correct your inappropriate usage of the term. "Endgame" is defined as the final stage of game. Currently, this is Alphascape V4.0 (Savage). If you're not there, you're not at endgame.
    So let me ask you this... if you could do o12s with a level 1 character without ever having to do any lead up to it and then level to 70 would you still call it "end" game?
    (0)

  10. #120
    Player
    Melichoir's Avatar
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    Uldah
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    1,537
    Character
    Desia Demarseille
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Ceanaorsa View Post
    instead of "minigames" could simply call it "side content"

    The main content (PvE / PvE HL) and side content (deep dongeons, eureka, triple triad etc etc)

    Getting 2 totally different set of skills (and different gameplay) on 1 job already exists on FFXIV, nothing new. in fact, the BLU would end to getting 3. It would be nothing new on FFXIV to get specific skills depending on where you are. . .

    Also, what the matter with what you point.
    If the blu get "dumpdown" skills for raid content, but his "fully" skills for Open World and the carnival content, all would be ok. We would have the "real" Blue mage, and a blue mage that fit in raid content.

    in this case, the BLU would be far better handle in FFXIV than other jobs (because ALL jobs get cut from part, sometime great part of what they really are. i love the DRK selfmutilate personnally... ... but ok, not in FFXIV i understand... )


    this topic list what 9 jobs in FFXIV lost. And not "small things" it is what make their identity in other FF... and lost it to fit FFXIV playstyle.
    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ted-Job-System
    Because youre creating two combat systems for one class. At (assumed) full power, BLU would be able to solo content. Its playstyle would be drastically different from party play. Again, assuming you can solo, and you can pick and choose skills, the pragmatic playstyle of BLU would be just click and cast spells, and how it performs is based on your judgement to adapt to the situation. This is unlike other casters, whos performance is based around rotation/priority systems and resource management. If you were to make BLU operate in hte same sphere as other casters, that would mean dumbing down skills, which then means changing the playstyle to a rotation/priority system of some kind, unless you just wnat to play a caster where all you do is press a button over and over and theres no gameplay.



    Kind of doubt you do. But this is the problem. People are confusing having monster skills with playstyle. How you get your skills really is irrelevant honestly. NPC, Monsters, etc. Dont matter. What does matter is how those skills are applied in game. With the current game, getting skills from monsters is just a more complicated way of doing your class quests than other casters. And you wouldnt be really 'getting those skills' but some dumb downed imitation of them.

    Your list, btw, doesnt help your position. It hurts it. Youre essentially saying "See all these other jobs that got changed? Yeah, theyre all big cuts and dissatisfying, but Im totally ok with them if I get my BLU. Which will get the same treatment...and be dissatisfying." Thats another contention I have. I am fairly confident that if they did what people propose, they would see it as a lackluster ghost of a class. A lot of hype early on. But once we got under way, the drop off would be substantial.

    This system theyre proposing might end up the same way. We have to try it and see.
    (0)

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