So, we beat the Garleans, huh?

[Derio]

Garleans arent the real threat though. The Ascians and the engulfment in light is. The Warrior of Darkness showed us that back in 3.x

[Edax]

Garleans arent the real threat though. The Ascians and the engulfment in light is. The Warrior of Darkness showed us that back in 3.x

Genocide wasn't enough of a "real threat"? Just how much evil are we supposed to tolerate here?

[Theodric]

Genocide wasn't enough of a "real threat"? Just how much evil are we supposed to tolerate here?

You're ignoring established nuances. Garlemald has done terrible things at times, certainly, though as recent revelations have shown that is largely attributed to a combination of Ascian meddling and the Garleans not having the plot convenience of the Warrior of Light - so far - to swoop in and solve all their problems for them before they can escalate.

It's not as if the Eorzean City States are squeaky clean either. If Ishgard can get a redemption arc it's hardly a stretch for Garlemald to get one as well - especially when pretty much every Garlean atrocity so far can be directly tied to Ascian manipulation.

Multiple prominent figures within Garlemald - including Gaius, Regula, Maxima and Varis - have been shown to be far from the cackling villains some were desperate to paint them as. The expansion will no doubt show more of that.

[Edax]

You're ignoring established nuances. Garlemald has done terrible things at times, certainly, though as recent revelations have shown that is largely attributed to a combination of Ascian meddling and the Garleans not having the plot convenience of the Warrior of Light - so far - to swoop in and solve all their problems for them before they can escalate.

It's not as if the Eorzean City States are squeaky clean either. If Ishgard can get a redemption arc it's hardly a stretch for Garlemald to get one as well - especially when pretty much every Garlean atrocity so far can be directly tied to Ascian manipulation.

Multiple prominent figures within Garlemald - including Gaius, Regula, Maxima and Varis - have been shown to be far from the cackling villains some were desperate to paint them as. The expansion will no doubt show more of that.

Oh BS. Once the Garleans tried to blow up an entire continent and commit mass genocide with Project Meteor, the whole excuse of "Well this creepy guy in a robe whispered in my ear to do it" or "I was just following orders" doesn't work. The Garleans are fully culpable for the actions they commit. The crimes of Ishgard, of slaying a dragon, revising history and painting others as heretics, that's a drop in the bucket compared to attempted mass genocide, not enough to condemn an entire society. What are the Eorzean City States guilty of that can put them on the same level of Garlemald? You add in the obsession with blood purity and vicious revanchism and your left with almost nothing redeemable about Garlemald. It's in their culture. It IS their culture. It's not just a handful of bad apples or Acsian Agents that can remake an entire culture.

[Theodric]

-snip-

You seem to be conveniently ignoring the simple fact that multiple prominent Garleans are on record as actively opposing the schemes and atrocities pushed by the Ascians and their supporters. Not just defectors, either - actual leader figures.

Their hands are, however, often tied. It's easy to sit back and embrace the benefit of hindsight but they're not the only race/nation to dance to the tune of the Ascians.

Ultimately, though, your beef is with the morality of the entire affair which is both subjective and largely irrelevant when discussing history and character motivations.

[Edax]

You seem to be conveniently ignoring the simple fact that multiple prominent Garleans are on record as actively opposing the schemes and atrocities pushed by the Ascians and their supporters. Not just defectors, either - actual leader figures.

Their hands are, however, often tied. It's easy to sit back and embrace the benefit of hindsight but they're not the only race/nation to dance to the tune of the Ascians.

Ultimately, though, your beef is with the morality of the entire affair which is both subjective and largely irrelevant when discussing history and character motivations.

The fact that the Garleans have enough supporters to conduct all those evil operations abroad while having all those resources at their disposal says it all. What's stopping the Ascians from ordering the WoL to say, wipe out all Lalas? If tying the hands of the Garleans is so easy, doing the same to the WoL, the Scions, or all leaders of Eorzea should be no problem right? I'm sure the Sultana, The Admiral, Kan-E-Senna, Aymeric and Hien would object, but what can they do about it if the Ascians are truly have the influence you are implying?

[Theodric]

The fact that the Garleans have enough supporters to conduct all those evil operations abroad while having all those resources at their disposal says it all.

It doesn't say much, really. Bear in mind, Pureblood Garleans were persecuted in the past and driven out of fertile territory. That led to them having to carve out a life for themselves in a frigid wasteland - which is bad enough, except they also had the disadvantage of being unable to use aether in the vast majority of cases. Such circumstances served to harden them over generations and forced them to do whatever was needed to survive - and whilst you can criticise some of their decisions it isn't as if they were seriously going to lay down and die or ignore the opportunity to improve the quality of their lives even if it came at the expense of others.

Garlemald is due to undergo reform in the same manner as Ishgard and Ala Mhigo. It isn't likely to be wiped off of the map and considered to be without redeeming qualities or innocents - because that just isn't the case at all.

The game very rarely leans on black and white morality. That has been a consistent element. Either way, it's perhaps something to agree to disagree on.