So, we beat the Garleans, huh?

[Edax]

You seem to be conveniently ignoring the simple fact that multiple prominent Garleans are on record as actively opposing the schemes and atrocities pushed by the Ascians and their supporters. Not just defectors, either - actual leader figures.

Their hands are, however, often tied. It's easy to sit back and embrace the benefit of hindsight but they're not the only race/nation to dance to the tune of the Ascians.

Ultimately, though, your beef is with the morality of the entire affair which is both subjective and largely irrelevant when discussing history and character motivations.

The fact that the Garleans have enough supporters to conduct all those evil operations abroad while having all those resources at their disposal says it all. What's stopping the Ascians from ordering the WoL to say, wipe out all Lalas? If tying the hands of the Garleans is so easy, doing the same to the WoL, the Scions, or all leaders of Eorzea should be no problem right? I'm sure the Sultana, The Admiral, Kan-E-Senna, Aymeric and Hien would object, but what can they do about it if the Ascians are truly have the influence you are implying?

[Theodric]

The fact that the Garleans have enough supporters to conduct all those evil operations abroad while having all those resources at their disposal says it all.

It doesn't say much, really. Bear in mind, Pureblood Garleans were persecuted in the past and driven out of fertile territory. That led to them having to carve out a life for themselves in a frigid wasteland - which is bad enough, except they also had the disadvantage of being unable to use aether in the vast majority of cases. Such circumstances served to harden them over generations and forced them to do whatever was needed to survive - and whilst you can criticise some of their decisions it isn't as if they were seriously going to lay down and die or ignore the opportunity to improve the quality of their lives even if it came at the expense of others.

Garlemald is due to undergo reform in the same manner as Ishgard and Ala Mhigo. It isn't likely to be wiped off of the map and considered to be without redeeming qualities or innocents - because that just isn't the case at all.

The game very rarely leans on black and white morality. That has been a consistent element. Either way, it's perhaps something to agree to disagree on.

[Edax]

It doesn't say much, really. Bear in mind, Pureblood Garleans were persecuted in the past and driven out of fertile territory. That led to them having to carve out a life for themselves in a frigid wasteland - which is bad enough, except they also had the disadvantage of being unable to use aether in the vast majority of cases. Such circumstances served to harden them over generations and forced them to do whatever was needed to survive - and whilst you can criticise some of their decisions it isn't as if they were seriously going to lay down and die or ignore the opportunity to improve the quality of their lives even if it came at the expense of others.

It's not like the choice for Garlemald here was commit mass genocide or face extinction. Or enslave the world or face extinction. They made their choice and it's irredeemable.

[Theodric]

It's not like the choice for Garlemald here was commit mass genocide or face extinction. Or enslave the world or face extinction. They made their choice and it's irredeemable.

Again, not every Garlean supported such measures. Many of those did were led astray. If you want to consider every single Garlean to be some sort of cackling villain then you're free to do that - but you're incorrect as we've seen numerous examples of Garleans trying to prevent such things from happening from within their own ranks.

[Edax]

Again, not every Garlean supported such measures. Many of those did were led astray. If you want to consider every single Garlean to be some sort of cackling villain then you're free to do that - but you're incorrect as we've seen numerous examples of Garleans trying to prevent such things from happening from within their own ranks.

Do I think every single Garlean is a cackling villain? No. Did I think every single German in WWII was a Nazi? No. Just because not all Germans were bad does not mean the Nazis could be cooperated with because of how evil the government was. Sure, some Germans spoke out, the Nazis were elected by only a minor majority, but once in power, they had support. That's how it was, there was just no way of accepting the actions of the Nazis, even if it somehow threatened light overwhelming the world. Were there German defectors? Certainly. Does that mean Nazi Germany was ready to reform itself? Absolutely not. It was a culture of evil. It wouldn't matter if there were a secret cabal controlling some key Nazi figures, the Germans following orders were responsible for their own actions, same as the Garleans.

[Vahlnir]

It's not like the choice for Garlemald here was commit mass genocide or face extinction. Or enslave the world or face extinction. They made their choice and it's irredeemable.

Spoilers:

True, but the fact remains that the founding father of the Empire was an Ascian. To me it's sorta playing out like ancient Rome in a way. Empire founded, followed by quick and vast expansion by conquering those who oppose, all for the greatness of Rome or whatever. It lasted a long time, but inevitably fell into chaos and discord until it was no more. I don't think it's quite fair to say that the people of Garlemald deserve to be destroyed or made to suffer. In fact, they probably enjoyed their prosperous empire for a long time. They probably felt that uniting the world under one banner was for the greater good. But just like every country or empire in RL history, it never lasts forever. The beginning of the end generally comes down to when the people begin to turn on each other...which is exactly what is happening in Garlemald. We don't have all the reasons yet I'm sure, but no doubt the Ascian influence is something a lot of people in Garlemald are against. For a lot of people, it no doubt turned everything they believed in upside down.

[Kallera]

That's odd, this got moved from general discussion? I had originally thought of posting in lore, but thought it didn't have a place as was a little too "opinionated".



Anyway, I do hope there is more to it, as others have mentioned. i kinda go back and forth on rooting for the empire, but I find them(I guess I should say I find the people in the empire, and less the nutty ascians) interesting.

[Iscah]

That's odd, this got moved from general discussion? I had originally thought of posting in lore, but thought it didn't have a place as was a little too "opinionated".

The mods don't seem to like leaving story discussions in the General forum. It's a pity - they attract people that don't come to the Lore forum, and it makes a nice change from the twentieth topic complaining about [current target of outrage].