SE, the concept of "Limited Jobs" is a really bad idea, turn back now

[Melichoir]

Not arguing that learning skill is not part of BLU's gimmick but just curious (in general) what the combat gimmick for BLU will be. I mean to say that imagine it's just monster abilities. Is it what.. 24 oGCD spells? lol, that can't be it. No combos? Rea..ally? There's got to be a system in place, and therefore there is probably a combat gimmick. That or it's very very straight forward job lol. We could make up some combat gimmicks in posts but I imagine it being so close to release there'd be not a huge point unless the system they used isn't exciting (but we don't know yet so.. yeh lol).

So I mean to say you have a piece of the gimmick but I can't imagine that's it.

This is something we dont know yet. This is also why getting upset about the limited system is semi foolish atm. Theres not enough Info. My speculation is based solely on the core concepts provided by current classes, as well as what is the gimmick of BLU that we have been given. This is why Im saying Balancing it would be incredibly hard. There is PROBABLY some system beyond "Just learn monster skills", but, it is more likely that it is pragmatically designed in a way that the focus isnt on a rotation or priority system, but rather gameplay will revolve around how you use the skills you learn to overcome challenges. Think of a action adventure game. As you learn more skills and combos, this gives you a greater variety of tools to defeat harder and harder bosses. So instead of learning a rotation or someting there of, you might learn how to use skills in conjunction to take care of a challenge. Boss spawns a room full of adds, pop a skil that sucks them into one spot, then immediately bad breath them to snare/stun/cc them, then hit them with 1kn. Things that would require a party to accomplish, you would be able to do so long as you have the skills and cleverness to do it.

That seems like a pragmatic system they would build. But thats my speculation.

I'd add though that I don't think the inherent problem you mentioned is unsolvable. There are thousands (probably literally) of monster skills, for SE not to be able to pick out skills from the list of available skills and turn it into a job would be.. talented lol. Not saying it'd be easy though.

Also any skills that are concerned for bosses should probably just have a rule attached to them. Like lets take level 5 death for example: If 5k potency attack would kill the target then the target is killed, otherwise deal 800 potency and do bla - 3 min cooldown. Now it won't be a boss killer but it could be a trash killer, and it's still useful even if it doesn't instant kill. imo Self destruct could avoid boss restrictions by something like being a dragoon ish skill "deals heavy aoe damage, reduce damage received by 35% while reforming for 2 seconds". Bad breath as you said would probably be brought down a bit but it doesn't have to be to the point of being boring/bad, like "inflicts 1 to 3 random status ailments per enemy in a target area" for 15 seconds and put the skill on a consuming system (like greased lighting) or add a long cooldown.

Im sure the problem could be solved, but the solutions migth be worse than the problem. For example, to make it work without any dumbing down, that might mean re balancing the game around BLU. But the problem with creating restrictions is youre now creating a complicated list of what works when. Dreadwyrm trance works on every boss except in specific and deliberate phases (i.e: Boss becomes invulnerable during a phase event) If every single one of the BLU's skills has caveats on when and where they can be used, thats going to create a lot of issues balance wise and player learning -wise. The issue with the suggestion like bad breath simply boils down to CC is powerful in of itself, and no class has an AoE high damage multiple CC ability. And lets say it can put multiple CCs at the cost of damage. You still have to consider what other abilities BLU would have that would hvae utility. To many and the class becomes inherently OP to anything susceptible to CC, and if you give enemies CC resistance, that negatively impacts all the other classes with 2 or 3 CC at most as well as needing you to mitigate damage on other BLU skills with CC to compensate for so much CC on one class. This is the balance issue with Monster Skills. If all BLU did was learn a reskinned version of Physic, or Fire I, it becomes moot and uninteresting unless you add a system to the class. If thats the case, then you take away from the core idea of BLU, where learning monster skills is just a harder way for you to get your fire 1 equivilant. You can gussy that up in Lore, but the average player is gonna eventually say "Wait a minute...."

Anyway I don't think skills that are adjusted like above would be boring even if they're not exactly the same. Also i'm personally leaning to / hoping for a set of core skills you have to go learn that SE balances for duty finder/raid, but can be unlocked/buffed in open world content along with other side skills that SE wants to add. Particularly I think that when you equip the wacky unbalanced skills they can come with passive buffs to your character and skills, so that you mix the two together when doing outside content - like say stool pelt a non balanced skill (from gorilla) also adds 10% hp and unlocks bad breath's full potential when equipped - where bad breath was the balanced for duty finder skill. In this way the player gets to unbalance themselves how they see fit for open world/solo, and their core set is still valuable. The worst part I know is that I'm just saying "give me both, what you (SE) wanted to make and what I hope to be able to do with Blue Mage" lol.. so I know it's a big ask, but even if I enjoy their version of blue mage (sounds like I will) I know I'll always want to be able to take him into other content too (and therefore it'll be a very bitter sweet pleasure).

The things suggested would make it ideal for solo play. Which is what they want to give you. But for them to operate in party play they become unbalanced. This would require creating rules and exceptions. And lets be frank, you think players are gonna be fine if they can do it in solo play but then get dumb downed versions of their skills in party?

And man youre all getting into this. Its fun.

Oh and you came with this fact from where exactly ? I'm kinda sure the first game to ever introduce BLU and many after him didn't have any rotation gameplay for any other job too. Rotation is a MMO thing, BLU isn't define by having a rotation but by the fact he use blue magic and how he get it nothing else.

BLM in FFI isn't about astra/ombral, BRD isn't about DoT and for the love of me RED mage isn't about alternating between white/black magic for spiritual balance.

What is the main identity of BLU that everyone wanted?

To learn skills from Monsters. This means, at the end of hte day, people want to play monster skills. Add a rotation, if you must, but that rotation then means balancing the monster learning skill gimmick, ontop of just balancing monster skills in party play.

Not really. I gave an example of how to make it different and there is a plethora of other theads completely dedicated to it. Dumbing it down is a bad way of saying it. It was played down mechanically in every FF, just like BLM was played down and just like SMN and all the other jobs were. BLM doesnt go around casting Death on every mob and one shotting it. SMN has their summons played down otherwise they would one shot every mob and boss with one Bahamut cast. THF or NIN doesn't use assassinate and one shot the mobs they are fighting etc.

Ill just requote your first statement:

In just about every other iteration of BLU it was dumbed down to fit into that games systems.

You said that they had to dumb down the skills to fit the system. Ive been saying that, and been saying that in Doing So, it denegrates the core idea of BLU - Something people I do not believe would like based on the points Ive made.

Holy crap you need to set the Kool-Aid down.

Ill have to give your post a response given time, but Ive already written a lot for this post. But just one quick sticking point:

I'm still lost on this idea that BLU was some super-powerful job that's impossible to balance against others. It never has been. I'm sorry for all the people who've been waiting 7-8 years for them to release BLU only to have it be a Hildibrand side-quest.

This part leads me to believe youre not thinking about Balance of a class in relationship to itself and content, but other classes. And maybe I shouldnt have said Hildebrand earlier, cause now theres people are treating the class as if its a snarky little plot driven sidequest you do, and not the actual fact its a new class with mechanics and separate content dedicated to it, and you are still able to do content, you just cant do it in DF, and might have to wait a bit of time before you get to certain things because balance is a thing.

But man, this is way to TLDR at this point.