SE, the concept of "Limited Jobs" is a really bad idea, turn back now

[Shougun]

-Lets consider this then. So you would start off with limited skills, and would be required to learn skills from Monsters. Ok. So youve just created a class who now learns skills more difficultly than other classes. That means in party play, unless you have all the skills for your lvl, youre gonna be dead weight to the party.
-Then you have to consider. How many skills will you have access too? If you give them access to "as many as they want so long as they learn them," that gives BLUs overwhelming advantages party wise compared to other classes. So youre gonna have to limit what skills they could learn, or how many skills they can use at any given time.
-Then you need to consider balance of skills vs other classes. In solo content, having powerful skills makes sense cause your survival depends on it. In party content, that power is divided up between members. To ensure BLU would be balanced in a party, that means gimping the spells learned from monsters. Youll have your generic dot, generic AoE, Generic single target skills. You may have some skills with CC on them, but theyll be limited in scope because High DMG + CC is OP in a party setting. So what becomes the play mechanic of the class then. It was "Learn all these powerful monster skills." But now thats being ham-stringed by balancing it against a party setting. So it just becomes a caster who has a harder time learning skills and will be essentially more akin to BLM but without any of hte shifting mechanics. And if you add specialty mechanics, then its no longer a BLU, because its core identity is learning skills from monsters.

I'm not sold that all of what you suggested is impossible to solve via compromise on tradition and function though. Like summoners in FF games normally take the whole party off the screen while you watch a 15 second to 2 minute movie.. . Fairly certain people were okay to make some compromise in order to play summoner. Although I want to be fair and say not everyone agrees on what to comprise and when so I'm not saying a comprise would be fine with you or everyone (or how to go about it), just that I don't think this is a "make it boring or make it great and there is //no// middle ground" scenario. Given that they will release it to 50 in 4.5 though it'll definitely not be possible to even pretend to imagine blue mage changing much till then, perhaps for the expansion - if they find something that works better (or maybe everyone tries the 4.5 and is like "omg nvm leave it as is").

For example instead of dead weights (blue mages missing core spells) you have the game not allow you to duty finder content until you have all the skills under the level bracket you're signing up for. And to add I would be okay with one job having extra work involved to maintain (so long as they're not time gated from content, like "can't play new content until they update the system a month after content is out"), especially if the mechanics were fun (getting a sweet open world exp buff and learning things from monsters could be worth the "cost").

If the concern is the selection is too large there could be a core set of skills designed for duty finder/raid, and side skills for outside of that. Especially if the concern is the class is too fluid (customize-able, or that players always make terrible choices in their customization). Things like level 5 death could be in that outside category, so no worry about level 5 deathing ultima. Also to consider is that you could make the job be one of the more/most fluid jobs, especially as it has a cost associated with it to justify it more than other jobs (learning skills). Like a Druid in WoW for example with their ability to transform for different skills and stats (which with talents can do well in one spec and subpar in others, and with a few button presses outside of dungeon/combat can switch the one they do well in).

FFXI made a Blue Mage work that had much of the system we've seen FFXIV's will have but was allowed into group play... although perhaps not so much on those crazy weird spells like "level 5 death" lol. But again, I don't think that's an unsolvable problem and doesn't require getting rid of nifty goof spells like death.

I guess in other words they have 49 skills right now, already, I don't think it's unfathomable to suggest that they take a subset of those skills and make them fair for group play and available at release (the subset, not all of them). Then they can add unbalanced ones that are restricted in use (like no duty finder) for fun later, if they so desire. There could even be a passive skill blue mages learn at level 1 that dictates that their out of duty finder skills are more powerful, therefore SE could tune down the subset they've chosen for blue but leave them even more ridiculous for open world/solo play.

Also I'm sure others have posted it but I thought it made a funny picture, here are FFXI's blue mage skills in one image lol:

Not saying anything is easy, just not sold that this is some unsolvable middle ground. I'm more thinking SE doesn't want to spend disproportional money on a job just because it should be special (even worse if the job isn't popular to play but it costs them 50% more to maintain compared to say BLM), I'm not the accountant/dev so all I can say is "wish you get enough money and time so it's worth it/possible and then change your mind" lol.

[whiskeybravo]

Anyone who keeps brining up the "I want it to be implemented so it can be used like all the other classes," please describe to us, in your own words, how you would balance it? And be clear and to the point about details. Cause Ive been thinking this over a bit, and I am more in line with the Devs. Balancing it would not be possible without it being OP or without it having its identity gutted and gimped.

First of all, you're assuming this game is perfectly balanced now. It's not. BRD offers more than MCH. WAR offers more than DRK. NIN offers more than all of the melee jobs combined. Caster's are possibly the most balanced with respect to one another, though I think SMN is leading the pack here. WHMs are getting left behind now too. So this argument that "balancing BLU is too hard" shouldn't hold water - This game has never been balanced to begin with.

Second, I don't have all day to build a "How I would make BLU". It doesn't matter and quite frankly I'm not that interested. I will only say that it doesn't seem like it would've been impossible. Actions could be obtained the same way, and overly powerful actions could be limited to solo situations (for example Big Guard or White Wind can only be used on self, this would help alleviate it being stacked with other defensive buffs for tank busters or raidwides). Obviously stuff like L5 Death or Bad Breath wouldn't have an effect on raid bosses. You could still have a bunch of BLU abilities, and the method of obtaining them which is unique to BLU and powerful for solo play, and still have it be compatible within a group.

The main problem, at least in my opinion, is that this feels like Eureka 2.0. It's an RNG-filled, side-content grind that's highly irrelevant to the game overall instead of a fully fleshed out battle job that can participate in all content. It's basically a Relic Job. It's basically Diablo Immortal in that people didn't ask for or expect this kind of re-incarnation of BLU.

I ASSUME, and this is a giant assumption on my part, anyone that had been asking for BLU to be in this game would've been willing to compromise and accept a form of BLU that fit's in with the system rather than one that is separate from it. I don't believe anyone asked for BLU with the intent of having it be entirely separate content, they wanted to play it as a main job or an alt, or just something to kick around with randomly (me if I chose to level it). So you can keep trying to justify their decision to yourself all you want, but it's not likely to convince others this was the correct choice to make for BLU.

[Moogly]

And I hope that if you want to change your stance to "most people think..." you'll provide statistical good data. Because that's how things work.

There is a poll : https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...echanic_to_be/
At this time it gives advantage to the "make it a regular job" side, which doesn't surprise me : to be honest, I was expecting it to be regular job, and my reaction was much similar to the fanfest crowd at the announcement.
Though I was also wondering how they would manage to make it a ffxiv job knowing how blue mages work.
So in the end, I wont say I'm hyped, rather curious at how this will play... it will give me something to level anyway, so w/ever. Who knows it might actually be fun.

From what I understood, it should work with PF.
If so, I will try some dungeons, making some T/H/BLUx2 groups or T/BLUx3 or even BLUx4 depending on how well it performs !

As for "the community gave ideas!", that's true. But that doesn't mean that they were good ideas, or that SE should be bound into listening them.

People need to understand that.
If it was a bad idea, then too bad. It's not the first time ffxiv fails on a piece of content.
We still have the new xpack coming, other new jobs, viera...

[Derceto]

I'm all for this myself. I'm tired of "just another job" which will be so mathematically balanced, to end up being "just another job" in the end.

They need to mix this game up a little, because the whole grind 450/week, 4 tokens/week, 24 man/week, is beyond old and tired. I'm not even mentioning anything else, because nothing else is worth doing. Eureka? Spare me, please.

This game needs something like this introduced, which doesn't have to solely rely on various people's schedules lining up through celestial balance to do anything.

Bring it on, I say.

[Blueyes]

There is a poll : https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...echanic_to_be/

I'm not a fan of that poll. I don't see why the learning mechanic for Blue Mage must be removed for Blue Mage to participate in raids. Those are two completely separate things. The strength of its spells are what creations an issue and that's just a matter of adjusting numbers. The poll also only specifies raiding when the current rendition bars it from participating in endgame as a whole. There are those who think Blue Mage shouldn't be allowed to raid, but it should be able to participate in other content such as Roulette. Put simply, I don't think it's the best representation for the reception of Blue Mage as a Limited Job.

[Vunak]

Snip.

Nothing in that post that I read, though I didn't read it all as its a huge thread and you didn't point to anything specific, really proves you right or wrong. But what I did read shows people using current systems in FFXIV to make BLU work with a few more abilities. Like the pet bar to swap between monster stances or Ninja's ability system to create more skills. I don't really recall anyone stating that they thought BLU wouldn't learn abilities off of monsters in some form, whether through the job quests or just out in the open like the current implementation similar to XI. That doesn't break balance. Most of the high spell count discussion was in talks about XI from what I read.

You only deal in extremes it seems. Black and white for you. If it doesn't fit for you its black if someone agrees with you and are on your side its white. Talking with people like you is pointless.

[Vunak]

I'm all for this myself. I'm tired of "just another job" which will be so mathematically balanced, to end up being "just another job" in the end.

They need to mix this game up a little, because the whole grind 450/week, 4 tokens/week, 24 man/week, is beyond old and tired. I'm not even mentioning anything else, because nothing else is worth doing. Eureka? Spare me, please.

This game needs something like this introduced, which doesn't have to solely rely on various people's schedules lining up through celestial balance to do anything.

Bring it on, I say.

I would be all for that. Create extra content for things to shake stuff up. But I don't see where in that line there has to be a limitation on it. Why does one mean you can't have the other. We already have the capability of unique action bars like in PvP. They already as they said have it where you can set a certain number of abilities. Why then did they not decide that X number of abilities are designated for group content and are balanced against the other classes for those purposes and leave what they have implemented in for the side content they have planned for BLU. It doesn't have to be balanced twice. Just like PvP abilities aren't balanced twice.

[Moogly]

I'm not a fan of that poll. I don't see why the learning mechanic for Blue Mage must be removed for Blue Mage to participate in raids. Those are two completely separate things. The strength of its spells are what creations an issue and that's just a matter of adjusting numbers. The poll also only specifies raiding when the current rendition bars it from participating in endgame as a whole. There are those who think Blue Mage shouldn't be allowed to raid, but it should be able to participate in other content such as Roulette. Put simply, I don't think it's the best representation for the reception of Blue Mage as a Limited Job.

There's so many ways to turn around the question and to nitpick on details, but the way it is asked in the poll itself https://www.strawpoll.me/16866229 pretty much sums it all.
And it is the only poll that I know of (i guess +5K votes should make a little reliable)

[Delmontyb]

Just going to say that I'm loving this idea, and very much excited to go hands on with it.
Hopefully, we'll see more jobs that bring in unique builds and player choice.

[PortalScience]

snip

OK, I will be detailed. Recall that this is a spitball idea that took less than 10 minutes to think up.

Before listing spells, I will go ahead and point out that they already have a system to limit you to 24 abilities. Assuming some percent of abilities ARE broken, just make sure the 24 at time of queue aren't, a boolean value on the spell saying it is not allowed. OK, spell ideas that are easily tweakable (took list from wiki and customized to easily balancable effects):

Generic moves from many games:
Angel Whisper - Standard resurrection spell
Mighty Guard - low duration shield to compensate for aoe (shake it off)
White Wind - like convert, but instead of giving mana, gives health to a target
Frog Song - Inflicts Toad on an enemy, boss immune/dungeon restricted
Magic Hammer - Does damage and returns MP (same as energy drain).
Night - Aoe Sleep. Functions identically to BLM.
Aero - inflicts Wind elemental damage single target. magic damage, wind marker on BLU gauge
Aqua Breath - inflicts Water elemental damage aoe cone target. magic damage, water marker on BLU gauge if it hits
Bad Breath - Bad Breath inflicts various statuses in cone. bosses would be immune to all but the dot portion.
Flamethrower - inflicts Fire elemental damage single target. magic damage, fire marker on BLU gauge
Doom - Doom inflicts the Doom status on one enemy. boss immune/dungeon restricted
Level 5 Death - Level 5 Death inflicts Instant Death on all enemies whose levels are a multiple of 5. boss immune/dungeon restricted
Roulette - randomly KOs an enemy or a party member. boss immune/dungeon restricted
1000 Needles - 1000 damage to an enemy, ignores defense, trait up later.
Acid - Acid inflicts non-elemental damage to an enemy, applies vulnerability
Blaster - inflicts non-elemental damage and attempts to inflict Instant Death on the target. boss immune/dungeon restricted
Goblin Punch - inflicts non-elemental damage to one enemy, low damage, fast cast time.
Lifebreak - potency increases the lower BLU's health. single target, long CD
Limit Glove - high damage move that can only be used by consuming all 6 elements on the BLU gauge.
Matra Magic - non-elemental aoe high damage, long cd
Self-Destruct - sacrifice for huge damage. boss immune/dungeon restricted

To balance out the gauge mentioned above, the following would also be needed (all 7 gauge moves required for dungeons - would be core gimmick)
Earth Shake - Circle aoe of Earth damage. magic damage, earth marker on BLU gauge if it hits
Electrocute - Circle aoe of Lightning damage. magic damage, lightning marker on BLU gauge if it hits
Cold Wave - damage over time Ice damage. magic damage, ice marker on BLU gauge

You could actually take even more of their elemental abilities (11 added a ridiculous number), so that they have aoe AND single target for both, and have more than one option to consume the gauge.