SHADOWBRINGERS

[BillyKaplan]

I feel like we had this song and dance before, but

I think you're confusing victories by the Warrior of Light with victories for the Light.

I was always under the impression that these were effectively one and the same. Because when the WoDs tried to tip the balance back in Darkness' favor, we saw them beat Ravana before we could. And when they talked about what tipped the balance in their world too heavily towards the Light, they specifically said it was them being uncontested champions. They didn't even talk about who they beat so much as how they just kept on winning until there was no one left to challenge them. So victories by the WoL pretty much seem to equal victories for Light. Which is probably why Zenos was one of the best things to have ever happened to us, until we caught up to him and took him down.

[Dualgunner]

I feel like we had this song and dance before, but



I was always under the impression that these were effectively one and the same. Because when the WoDs tried to tip the balance back in Darkness' favor, we saw them beat Ravana before we could. And when they talked about what tipped the balance in their world too heavily towards the Light, they specifically said it was them being uncontested champions. They didn't even talk about who they beat so much as how they just kept on winning until there was no one left to challenge them. So victories by the WoL pretty much seem to equal victories for Light. Which is probably why Zenos was one of the best things to have ever happened to us, until we caught up to him and took him down.

The story implication there--that WoL winning a fight means the Light won a fight and is tipping the scales back--is a really strange one and I don't think that would be a smart route to take. I inferred they antagonized the Gnath into summoning Ravana (because summoning drains Hydaelyn is my understanding), and that was Darkness' victory. I mean, heck I'm sure Iscah brought it up but I'll reiterate, even us killing a Primal only scares the beastmen into summoning their primal again: we've seen Ifrit summoned four times (Normal, Garuda, HM, EX), Titan summoned five times (Normal, Garuda, HM, EX, 3.4 story), Garuda summoned three times (Normal, HM, EX).The HM and EX of the first three even had side story of Ascians watching us and noting how yes, we're winning against the primals, but that's just stirring things into even more of a frenzy and we're playing into their hands, and that we have to because it's either that or let the Primals keep rampaging.

It also brings into question why Ascians would keep letting us fight primals, or let us fight primals with no hindrance. If us defeating a primal summoned by their hand* is good for us, why are they letting us do it?


*Well, not directly their hand, but...indirectly by their hand?

[LastFireAce]

The story implication there--that WoL winning a fight means the Light won a fight and is tipping the scales back--is a really strange one and I don't think that would be a smart route to take. I inferred they antagonized the Gnath into summoning Ravana (because summoning drains Hydaelyn is my understanding), and that was Darkness' victory. I mean, heck I'm sure Iscah brought it up but I'll reiterate, even us killing a Primal only scares the beastmen into summoning their primal again: we've seen Ifrit summoned four times (Normal, Garuda, HM, EX), Titan summoned five times (Normal, Garuda, HM, EX, 3.4 story), Garuda summoned three times (Normal, HM, EX).The HM and EX of the first three even had side story of Ascians watching us and noting how yes, we're winning against the primals, but that's just stirring things into even more of a frenzy and we're playing into their hands, and that we have to because it's either that or let the Primals keep rampaging.

It also brings into question why Ascians would keep letting us fight primals, or let us fight primals with no hindrance. If us defeating a primal summoned by their hand* is good for us, why are they letting us do it?


*Well, not directly their hand, but...indirectly by their hand?

Garuda was summon 4 time.
Normal, hard, EX and that one dungeon at that end of HW

[Iscah]

even us killing a Primal only scares the beastmen into summoning their primal again: we've seen Ifrit summoned four times (Normal, Garuda, HM, EX), Titan summoned five times (Normal, Garuda, HM, EX, 3.4 story), Garuda summoned three times (Normal, HM, EX).

And that's only the summonings we were present for!

One of the Tales From the Storm implies that it's a somewhat regular occurrence, and others are fighting primals too.

[BillyKaplan]

I mean, heck I'm sure Iscah brought it up but I'll reiterate, even us killing a Primal only scares the beastmen into summoning their primal again

Then what's the difference between us and the WoD? We're all doing the same thing. Primal gets summoned - yeah, Ascian victory, no one denies that. But by that logic, our victory over it would just as equally fuel the next Darkness feat. And if you say beating the Primal is a victory to the Light, why did the WoD defeat Ravana? There has to be something to have made their victory not tilt the scales back, to still have made it worthwhile for them to bother. So far, the only thing setting us and them apart seems to be whose proxies we were at the time the deed was done.

[Dualgunner]

Then what's the difference between us and the WoD? We're all doing the same thing. Primal gets summoned - yeah, Ascian victory, no one denies that. But by that logic, our victory over it would just as equally fuel the next Darkness feat. And if you say beating the Primal is a victory to the Light, why did the WoD defeat Ravana? There has to be something to have made their victory not tilt the scales back, to still have made it worthwhile for them to bother. So far, the only thing setting us and them apart seems to be whose proxies we were at the time the deed was done.

I don't know the answer.

But then, if we follow your logic, should we pull Arenvald along to finish off every primal we beat? Or Fordola? Perhaps we should get Lolorito, assuming the former two are too associated with the Light? Or was it a victory for the Light too when the Company of Heroes defeated Titan and Leviathan? If it were explained as "Every time Hydaelyn's chosen defeats a primal entity, they become more powerful," we'd have a genuine point here, but as far as we're told, that's not the case. We're still street level with immunity to lower level godhax.

It also, again, begs the question: the Ascians act like they're in the advantageous position with the WoL between a rock and a hard place; defeat the summoned primal, and terrify beast tribes to summoning again or remaining idle and letting the primal rampage and turn more people and make themselves stronger. Why would this be an advantage if this weighted the world in Hydaelyn's favor, and why wouldn't we be running around doing what the WoD was doing (agitating beast tribes into summoning with the specific purpose of slaying that primal to gain Universal Points for their team)?

[BillyKaplan]

But then, if we follow your logic, should we pull Arenvald along to finish off every primal we beat? Or Fordola?

Arenvald is one of Hydaelyn's chosen, no difference if we had done it or him. As for Fordola, we'd need to learn more about her synthetic Echo before I can form an opinion. It might not even count for her.

Perhaps we should get Lolorito

While Lolorito is far from good, I wouldn't necessarily say he's pure evil either, and either way has no known ties to either Hydaelyn or Zodiark. The WoDs at this point in time have formed an alliance with the Ascians and therefore Zodiark, which is why I think they could even tip the balance in Darkness' favor.

If it were explained as "Every time Hydaelyn's chosen defeats a primal entity, they become more powerful," we'd have a genuine point here, but as far as we're told, that's not the case. We're still street level with immunity to lower level godhax.

You might've been able to claim that as fact until Stormblood. But in Stormblood we get cold, hard story telling us we got stronger over time because we saw the results as we kept fighting Zenos. At first we lost - then we fought Susano, and we managed to hold our ground against him in Yanxia. Then we beat Lakshmi, and we managed to beat him in Ala Mhigo. It was never clearly stated in-game, no, and there're other ways to explain our increase in power (my personal favorite is how we feed on people's faith in us like Primals do) but it's a very easy case to argue in favor of.

Why would this be an advantage if this weighted the world in Hydaelyn's favor, and why wouldn't we be running around doing what the WoD was doing (agitating beast tribes into summoning with the specific purpose of slaying that primal to gain Universal Points for their team)?

3.4 + 4.4. The Ascians are absolutely not in an advantageous position. This is a story-string that has been going strong since before the introduction of the WoD, and made clear once they showed up. We are an unstoppable force representing the Light. The only thing that even managed to slow us down was Zenos and we beat him. And now this voice from beyond - possibly the future - is warning us about a Calamity should we continue down this path of completely beating the Ascians.
Also, I'm not so sure if they agitated the Gnath into summoning Ravana. Their original reason for summoning him was waging war, I think that, and us taking Ravana down in the first place, gave them more than enough motivation to re-summon him. Which leaves this whole thing in an even bigger flux.

EDIT: addendum, random thought I had. Defeating the Primals in and of itself is not a victory for the Light, but us doing it is. Because Primals were defeated long before we showed up. We know, as you mentioned, the Company of Heroes defeated Titan. SMN questline talks about defeating Ifrit. In Limsa you hear about the last time they had to beat Leviathan. But all those Primals were beaten, yet still when the game starts it sounds like the Ascians are in full dominance, and the Scions have to wrestle the balance back tooth and nail and are still lagging behind.
Until you showed up. You, a Battle-ready Champion of Hydaelyn's. And that's when defeating the Primals started tipping the balance.

[Dualgunner]

Arenvald is one of Hydaelyn's chosen, no difference if we had done it or him. As for Fordola, we'd need to learn more about her synthetic Echo before I can form an opinion. It might not even count for her. While Lolorito is far from good, I wouldn't necessarily say he's pure evil either, and either way has no known ties to either Hydaelyn or Zodiark. The WoDs at this point in time have formed an alliance with the Ascians and therefore Zodiark, which is why I think they could even tip the balance in Darkness' favor.

I brought Lolorito up to suggest a neutral entity.

You might've been able to claim that as fact until Stormblood. But in Stormblood we get cold, hard story telling us we got stronger over time because we saw the results as we kept fighting Zenos. At first we lost - then we fought Susano, and we managed to hold our ground against him in Yanxia. Then we beat Lakshmi, and we managed to beat him in Ala Mhigo. It was never clearly stated in-game, no, and there're other ways to explain our increase in power (my personal favorite is how we feed on people's faith in us like Primals do) but it's a very easy case to argue in favor of.

That is, indeed, an interpretation. It's not one I agree with, but that's certainly a valid interpretation of events that happened; it's also not exactly quantified, and by that point we'd already slain a dozen or so primals previous to Zenos, so how did slaying two more give us that dramatic of a power boost when the dozen we'd defeated before left us without the strength to so much as leave more than a scratch on his armor?

EDIT: Not to mention, among our victory list is a victory over Bahamut himself (why didn't we get a stupidly high power boost from that?) Odin (another elder primal), and the Warring Triad which are described as being as powerful as if not moreso than Bahamut. If we do gain power from defeating primals, there's no way Zenos would have been able to defeat us in the first place, because by the point we fight him we'd be stronger than Calamity-level primals.

3.4 + 4.4. The Ascians are absolutely not in an advantageous position. This is a story-string that has been going strong since before the introduction of the WoD, and made clear once they showed up.

Well, it's one that's been stated, for sure. This whole conversation started because I don't see them as doing anything but whining that the Light is finally fighting back in some measure against Darkness; they started freaking out because suddenly two of their most prominent members got axed in one battle.

This also doesn't answer my question. Their game is "We summon the primal. That hurts Hydaelyn. Either the WoL kills it, and it gets summoned again by scared beastmen, hurting Hydaelyn again, or the WoL leaves it alone and it starts rampaging, turning and killing people in droves, all the while continuing to harm Hydaelyn. No matter how the WoL responds to this situation, we gain from it." (The Ascian's Gambit, coining it)

This makes no sense if every time we defeat a Primal, that tilts the world in Hydaelyn's favor, because that's very much against what the Ascians want. If anything, that's more reason for the WoL to go around inciting summonings so we can slay the Primals summoned.

We are an unstoppable force representing the Light. The only thing that even managed to slow us down was Zenos and we beat him. And now this voice from beyond - possibly the future - is warning us about a Calamity should we continue down this path of completely beating the Ascians.

And yet Elidibus is confident he could handle us 1v1 with Zenos' body with very little effort. He's confident that the Garlean Empire could quite handily defeat us--Varis need only give a word, and we're as good as dead.

Also, I'm not so sure if they agitated the Gnath into summoning Ravana. Their original reason for summoning him was waging war, I think that, and us taking Ravana down in the first place, gave them more than enough motivation to re-summon him. Which leaves this whole thing in an even bigger flux.

https://youtu.be/-rW4QFujLDE?t=49m1s

"You know, you're right. Maybe it is time for a change of tack. Killing primals, tormenting beastmen, hastening the birth of a new god..."

It's not proof they were agitating the Gnath to summon Ravana. But it's a line of dialogue that suggests they're not above forcing summonings. Again, though, I argue the summoning itself is what harms Hydaelyn, and slaying the God scares them into summoning again. The WoD forcing the Ascian's Gambit, if you will.

Until you showed up. You, a Battle-ready Champion of Hydaelyn's. And that's when defeating the Primals started tipping the balance.

So does it have to be a non-Echo user who fights the primal? We're not the first with Echo, there were plenty in 1.0. Does it have to be a non-Echo user who deals the final blow? Okay, we just take Raubahn to slit Ifrit's throat next time, and mainly play defense for him as we've shown we can do against Lakshmi, everything's hunky dory.

Suddenly we have the same effect (Primal harming Hydaelyn is vanquished) with all the Universe Points dropping into the neutral pile.

I'm critical of this because if they go this route, it's bad writing in my eyes. They're forcing this idea of "balance" after the Ascians had--sorry I forget the number--seven Calamitous victories already? Yet after defeating a dozen or two primals, we're suddenly not only back to full balance after seven apocalyptic events but we're pushing it too far to Light? I'm sorry, I need more than "Well the WoL killing things dumps points into the Light pool." to explain that, and if it is the case, it needs to be made explicit, and soon.

Another Edit: I apologize for my aggressive tone.

[BillyKaplan]

That is, indeed, an interpretation. It's not one I agree with, but that's certainly a valid interpretation of events that happened; it's also not exactly quantified, and by that point we'd already slain a dozen or so primals previous to Zenos, so how did slaying two more give us that dramatic of a power boost when the dozen we'd defeated before left us without the strength to so much as leave more than a scratch on his armor?

That admittedly makes more sense if you, like me, believe the WoL soaks up the people's faith in them. By the time we fought Zenos again in Yanxia, we had already rallied initial support from Gyr Abania, the Confederacy, the Kojin of the Blue, and began making progress in Yanxia. By the time we fought him - both in human form and Primal form - in Ala Mhigo, we had become rulers of the Steppe, and heroes of Doma.
It's more conjecture, I agree. But there are lot of story-elements that line up too nicely for me to think it's simply circumstance. And if it were, like you mentioned elsewhere in your post, it would just be lucky bad writing.

EDIT: Not to mention, among our victory list is a victory over Bahamut himself (why didn't we get a stupidly high power boost from that?) Odin (another elder primal), and the Warring Triad which are described as being as powerful as if not moreso than Bahamut. If we do gain power from defeating primals, there's no way Zenos would have been able to defeat us in the first place, because by the point we fight him we'd be stronger than Calamity-level primals.

1. Those are all optional Primals. I agree with what you're saying but at the same time...
2. You're making an assumption there about how much our power increases with every defeated Primal which the story might not necessarily share.
3. the pure story iterations of those fights always have a "fight them before they reach max power" elements. You intentionally released the Warring Triads from imprisonment so you could control when you fought them, instead of having to face them when they broke free and gained full strength - that's why you even have the Extreme versions of that fight in the first place. IIRC Odin you fight just as he manifested again, before managing to drink too much from the Shroud's aether. and I remember something similar for Bahamut as well, once you find him.

This makes no sense if every time we defeat a Primal, that tilts the world in Hydaelyn's favor, because that's very much against what the Ascians want. If anything, that's more reason for the WoL to go around inciting summonings so we can slay the Primals summoned.

That actually lines up with the trials we got in SB. Susano's summoning was a mistake, brought about by our infiltration of the vault and the Red's panic. To our knowledge, the Ascians weren't involved and there was momentary confusion about whether or not the thing was even a Primal because of where it came from. And Lakshmi was summoned in a surge of grief, seemingly unintentional. It's not coerced and planned like the other Primals we fought, so maybe they did stop inciting summonings. Then we have Tsukuyomi which was part of a grander scheme and a direct attempt at the WoL's life, and the rest of it aren't even Primals, they're... forgot the term but they're basically mythical beasts. SB really moved away from the old-school sort of trial bosses. Granted next expansion might double down on it, but we'll see.

He's confident that the Garlean Empire could quite handily defeat us--Varis need only give a word, and we're as good as dead.

That I believe in. Most of our fights were always one-on-one or very limited raids with assistance. If they brought down the might of the empire? Yeah, we're goners.

So does it have to be a non-Echo user who fights the primal? We're not the first with Echo, there were plenty in 1.0. Does it have to be a non-Echo user who deals e final blow? Okay, we just take Raubahn to slit Ifrit's throat next time, and mainly play defense for him as we've shown we can do against Lakshmi, everything's hunky dory.

The problem with that is that they're so very likely to be tempered on the way, which is why they don't go with us normally, and needed protection from WoL, Arenvald and Fordola all together in 4.1. It's not a reliable strategy.

I'm critical of this because if they go this route, it's bad writing in my eyes. They're forcing this idea of "balance" after the Ascians had--sorry I forget the number--seven Calamitous victories already? Yet after defeating a dozen or two primals, we're suddenly not only back to full balance after seven apocalyptic events but we're pushing it too far to Light? I'm sorry, I need more than "Well the WoL killing things dumps points into the Light pool." to explain that, and if it is the case, it needs to be made explicit, and soon.

We already have examples of what happened if the balance was tipped too much in the favor of one or the other. It wasn't Calamities, it was the world being nigh unsalvagable - The Void is the way it is because the Ascian we killed along in ARF was too strong for that world's WoL. The First was wiped out because the WoD, then that world's WoLs, were too strong. Calamities seem to be horrible, unimaginable disasters more so than necessarily any one side becoming too strong. Look at the war of the magi and the resulting flood - it had less to do with Light or Darkness.

Another Edit: I apologize for my aggressive tone.

o7 All good. Honestly I'm not sure how much we can really resolve here given there's so much we just don't know. All we can do is toy with what partial details we have on-hand at the moment, which like you said, can be taken this way or that.

[kikix12]

I was always under the impression that these were effectively one and the same. Because when the WoDs tried to tip the balance back in Darkness' favor, we saw them beat Ravana before we could. And when they talked about what tipped the balance in their world too heavily towards the Light, they specifically said it was them being uncontested champions.

It was never clearly stated in-game, no, and there're other ways to explain our increase in power (my personal favorite is how we feed on people's faith in us like Primals do) but it's a very easy case to argue in favor of.

That admittedly makes more sense if you, like me, believe the WoL soaks up the people's faith in them. By the time we fought Zenos again in Yanxia, we had already rallied initial support from Gyr Abania, the Confederacy, the Kojin of the Blue, and began making progress in Yanxia.

You actually answered yourself there.

Warrior of Light is a proxy for Hydaelyn. Summoning a primal is a blow against light, that much is impossible to contest as Ascians repeatedly said stuff to such effect. Warrior of Light defeating the Primals is some sort of blow against darkness, that much is suggested by what Warriors of Darkness said and by how Warrior of Light is beginning to be a thorn up the Ascians asses (largely due to how FAST Warrior of Light kills them, meaning they don't manage to cause a lot of damage after being summoned). Why Warriors of Darkness tips the favor in darknesses side though?

It's simple. If it's a different entity that defeats the primals, the Warrior of Light doesn't get the credit for it. In other words, the primals summoning harms Hydaelyn, but the Warrior of Light defeating the primal does not happen, so that "wound" is in no way mitigated. Warriors of Darkness, as proxy of Zodiark, on the other hand, would gain "faith" that goes towards Zodiarks strength rather than Hydaelyn. Even if not, it's still a clear positive since Hydaelyn is stopped from getting anything back.

Warrior of Light is shown as the centerpiece in the world. Because people have faith in this proxy of Hydaelyn, they are willing to follow even extremely ridiculous plans that they'd not dare do otherwise. They know they have that "safety net". That leads them to uniting. And that unison is exactly what "produces light" in my opinion. If the Warrior of Light is undermined (through failures or being outdone), then others will start questioning the strength of that "safety net" and may even start breaking alliances out of fear for retribution.