SHADOWBRINGERS

[Derio]

I dont think there will be a calamity like we think there will be.

I mean people are expecting another calamity to bring about serious changes to maps, current systems etc.

I am expecting them to find a way for the calamity to still happen but mitigate the damage it does to the environment while restoring aether to the land.

The real question is does it happen in 5.0 or is 5.0 the true leading up into the calamity in 6.0 which ironically is most likely when they will have new tech available.

[kikix12]

I think your overselling the calamities. They caused prominent civilizations with a region to falter/collapse, but that doesnt always mean the absolute obliteration of everything, as we can see that we're all still here (so to speak) and knowledge and technology marches forward.

Technology vastly worse than what was several centuries (millenia?!) ago, magic vastly weaker than what was centuries (millenia?!) ago. And no, Garlemald doesn't count. They use ALLAGAN technology, as taught to them by Ascians. And even then they are inferior to actual Allagan still.

White Mages, Black Mages, Scholars...all of these jobs were almost lost to time because of these calamities. Entire groups of people were lost to time, becoming nothing more than history that needs to be uncovered from old tomes.

Sure...The calamities weren't a big deal and the light was doing just spiffy...

Sorry, but it's like saying that The Black Death was a sneeze, World War I and II were just small arguments or that obliteration of one continent (whichever one) in real world would be no problem cause, hey, there are several more left, right!

Again, this is in relationship to how well the light is doing. I keep pointing that out because in the grander scheme of things, its Zodiark whos locked up, not Hydaelyn, when both are implied to be necessary for balance.

Yeah...Except the light is losing from the moment that Hydaelyn sealed Zodiark. I'm pretty sure that she said it herself, that Zodiark suddenly begun craving destruction or something like that and that she had to seal him. And also that it did cost her a lot of her energy. You know...Sealing is usually done against someone you CANNOT defeat in fiction. Point in question...how the Warring Triad was sealed, how Bahamut was sealed, how the big-bad from the Four Lords (I don't remember his name...) is sealed. All of them are more powerful than who they fought and that's why they were sealed in desperation and not defeated.

And for Zodiark to have been locked up, what kind of battle was waged and on what scale to have that outcome. An outcome that is a clear and decisive victory for Hydaelyn, where all calamities, while thus far terrible, still havent spelled defeat or doom for Hydaelyn.

And what spelled doom for Zodiark?! He is all fine and dandy, having numerous servants each with power that literally one person in the world that have all the blessing that Hydealyn could muster (and lost at one point) can really oppose...He's sealed, but not defeated. His release is only a matter of time however. Not a problem for someone that's probably timeless. I mean, there is no reverse of the calamity. No "world reconstruction" that fixes the seal. It can only go his way or no way at all.

If Hydaelyn remains unchecked, the conclusion is the world gets enveloped by light and destroyed, as demonstrated on other worlds when one side of the spectrum gains to much power (Creatures from the void are from worlds that fell into darkness). So, in making sure things are kept in check, does that means the ascians and their actions are necessary evils?

No. It means that the Ascians and their actions cause a disruption because if they weren't there, neither would be the warrior of light. And the world would actually be in a state of balance where countries would be hostile towards each other, without waging all-out wars. Garlemald was such a harassed country after all. The three Eorzean states were allied to oppose the actions caused by Ascians, they wouldn't have allied otherwise. By trying to pull the state of the world towards one extreme, the Ascians led to creation of someone that opposes them, allying those countries that otherwise would be contesting for resources, space and what not as most countries do.

As I said, there ARE things left unknown that will probably show Hydaelyn in less favorable light with time. But the condition of light and dark is actually pretty clear. Just not the actual motives they have because we can only assume that Zodiark wants destruction going by what his "rival" told us. And Ascians do like to beat around the bush themselves instead of saying the thing that the warrior of light would supposedly agree with (if they had better mastery of echo).

[Iscah]

Again, its relative to how well the light is doing overall.

Consider the current age: Weve been victorious against....

Titan
Garuda
Ifrit
Shiva
Nidd
Shinryu
Garlemald on numerous occassions
Dragon Space Pope
Diablo (and all Raids connected to Him)
Bismark
Zurvan
Ravana
Sophia
Sephirot
Alaggan Junk
Omega Weapon
Lakshmi
Ultima Weap
Lahabrea and Ascian ilk broadly
Wars of Darkness

These are All victories for the light, so to speak.

I think you're confusing victories by the Warrior of Light with victories for the Light.

Primals need to be defeated to prevent them from draining the land's aether, and yet each defeat drives the anger and desperation of the beast tribes. We are essentially playing into the Ascians' plans.

Ultima - a 'victory for the Light' but one that came at great cost to Hydaelyn's strength when She shielded us from Ultima. (It's only after this that she 'summons' Minfilia to act as Her voice. Was it somehow necessary? We're lacking answers about why it happened.)

Nabriales and the Chrysalis - we thwarted some kind of Ascian scheme to acquire Tupsimati and kidnap Minfilia for... some kind of unknown purpose. (That makes me think - did Hydaelyn 'take' Minfilia so she'd be beyond Ascian reach? Is there something special about her?) Anyway, it was more preventing a gain for Darkness than winning a gain for Light. Nabriales' defeat might be a win, but only if his position isn't simply filled by promoting a lesser Ascian to his place. (The lorebook also notes that Nabriales had "far less raw power than the likes of Lahabrea and Elidibus".)

The Binding Coil - prevented further chaos from a reborn Bahamut, and returned its aether to the land. Is this a win for the Light, or is the natural flow of aether a separate, 'neutral' element to the conflict?

Thordan - this is an interesting one, and I've just got to this point with my alt charater. Thordan outplayed Lahabrea and things didn't go to plan. What was the Ascians' original intent? Increased conflict with the dragons? A long-term plan to get hold of Nidhogg's eyes? Regardless, it went wrong and Lahabrea was (apparently) destroyed by the primal he taught Thordan to create.
The post-credits scene is particularly interesting. Elidibus says he will need to take more active measures to fix the balance. This seems to be specifically calling on the Warrior of Darkness, but in light of recent events, that may not be his only intent.

The Warring Triad - not an increase for the Light, but a prevention of great chaos... and yet apparently Elidibus is pulling strings somewhere in the background (via Unukalhai) to get us to do this. And if Mr "Balance is Everything" who considers our recent victories inconvenient wants us to do something, I have to wonder about the long-term implications...

Nidhogg - one of our few true victories, winning peace for Ishgard - and yet it also left the Eyes free for the taking.

Warriors of Darkness - listing this as a victory is oversimplifying it. We defeated them in the battle instance but that wasn't the end of it.
Again it was Elidibus who had a hand in this from the start - guiding them to believe that the only way they could save their world was to bring about a Calamity in this one. (Though with some kind of counter-machinations from Urianger - I forget the details but will be playing through that part again soon.)

Diablos, Omega and other raids - perhaps our best examples of actual victories. And yet they tend to be high-stakes world-destroying events... and the Ascians don't necessarily want that to happen either.


The tricky question through all of this: what drives the balance of Light and Darkness? Do we need to actively create Light somehow or does it increase naturally as the number of Dark-aspected beings in the world lessens? Is Hydaelyn ideally able to 'feed on light' and keep it in check, but currently starved and weakened to the point She can't even reach out and do this?

There are so many unknowns, and we'll have to wait and see what revelations we get in the future.

This would mean that broadly, the power dynamic is already tilted towards Hydaelyn and she wants to keep it that way, while Elidibus wants to tilt it back towards neutral. (I point to Elidibus because of the ascians weve seen, hes not so hung up on letting Zodiark free for the sake of "Cause Zodiark is cool", and more for "returning the balance of things.")

Elidibus wants balance - but that's because letting the world fall to either Darkness or Light makes it useless to Zodiark. By necessity, the Ascians' goal requires them to push the world to the brink of disaster without letting it topple over into the void. It's Elidibus's job to make sure that doesn't happen, especially since Igeyorhm already ruined the Thirteenth Shard this way.

Because of this, he's playing both sides. To quote the lorebook: "He has shown himself willing to lend his counsel and aid to the Scions, the embodiments of the Light. Nevertheless, his loyalty to Zodiark - the will within the Darkness - is absolute."

[Hyperia]

Each calamity lowered the overall technological level of the planet. The first calamity probably destroyed a civilization that had access to space travel, quantum mechanics on a high order and nearly unlimited energy resources. From there, we had the second collapse, followed by the third which wiped out the Allagans. With each fall, civilization lost more and more knowledge, resources and power. We have essentially gone from a world who had access to Star Trek levels of technology to where we are now, which in many ways is nearly medieval. One more big push and were all the way back to sticks and stones, if not worse.

[BillyKaplan]

I feel like we had this song and dance before, but

I think you're confusing victories by the Warrior of Light with victories for the Light.

I was always under the impression that these were effectively one and the same. Because when the WoDs tried to tip the balance back in Darkness' favor, we saw them beat Ravana before we could. And when they talked about what tipped the balance in their world too heavily towards the Light, they specifically said it was them being uncontested champions. They didn't even talk about who they beat so much as how they just kept on winning until there was no one left to challenge them. So victories by the WoL pretty much seem to equal victories for Light. Which is probably why Zenos was one of the best things to have ever happened to us, until we caught up to him and took him down.

[Dualgunner]

I feel like we had this song and dance before, but



I was always under the impression that these were effectively one and the same. Because when the WoDs tried to tip the balance back in Darkness' favor, we saw them beat Ravana before we could. And when they talked about what tipped the balance in their world too heavily towards the Light, they specifically said it was them being uncontested champions. They didn't even talk about who they beat so much as how they just kept on winning until there was no one left to challenge them. So victories by the WoL pretty much seem to equal victories for Light. Which is probably why Zenos was one of the best things to have ever happened to us, until we caught up to him and took him down.

The story implication there--that WoL winning a fight means the Light won a fight and is tipping the scales back--is a really strange one and I don't think that would be a smart route to take. I inferred they antagonized the Gnath into summoning Ravana (because summoning drains Hydaelyn is my understanding), and that was Darkness' victory. I mean, heck I'm sure Iscah brought it up but I'll reiterate, even us killing a Primal only scares the beastmen into summoning their primal again: we've seen Ifrit summoned four times (Normal, Garuda, HM, EX), Titan summoned five times (Normal, Garuda, HM, EX, 3.4 story), Garuda summoned three times (Normal, HM, EX).The HM and EX of the first three even had side story of Ascians watching us and noting how yes, we're winning against the primals, but that's just stirring things into even more of a frenzy and we're playing into their hands, and that we have to because it's either that or let the Primals keep rampaging.

It also brings into question why Ascians would keep letting us fight primals, or let us fight primals with no hindrance. If us defeating a primal summoned by their hand* is good for us, why are they letting us do it?


*Well, not directly their hand, but...indirectly by their hand?

[LastFireAce]

The story implication there--that WoL winning a fight means the Light won a fight and is tipping the scales back--is a really strange one and I don't think that would be a smart route to take. I inferred they antagonized the Gnath into summoning Ravana (because summoning drains Hydaelyn is my understanding), and that was Darkness' victory. I mean, heck I'm sure Iscah brought it up but I'll reiterate, even us killing a Primal only scares the beastmen into summoning their primal again: we've seen Ifrit summoned four times (Normal, Garuda, HM, EX), Titan summoned five times (Normal, Garuda, HM, EX, 3.4 story), Garuda summoned three times (Normal, HM, EX).The HM and EX of the first three even had side story of Ascians watching us and noting how yes, we're winning against the primals, but that's just stirring things into even more of a frenzy and we're playing into their hands, and that we have to because it's either that or let the Primals keep rampaging.

It also brings into question why Ascians would keep letting us fight primals, or let us fight primals with no hindrance. If us defeating a primal summoned by their hand* is good for us, why are they letting us do it?


*Well, not directly their hand, but...indirectly by their hand?

Garuda was summon 4 time.
Normal, hard, EX and that one dungeon at that end of HW

[Iscah]

even us killing a Primal only scares the beastmen into summoning their primal again: we've seen Ifrit summoned four times (Normal, Garuda, HM, EX), Titan summoned five times (Normal, Garuda, HM, EX, 3.4 story), Garuda summoned three times (Normal, HM, EX).

And that's only the summonings we were present for!

One of the Tales From the Storm implies that it's a somewhat regular occurrence, and others are fighting primals too.

[Mansion]

Well it's a matter of hours now before we get a few clues!

Are we taking bets?

[BillyKaplan]

I mean, heck I'm sure Iscah brought it up but I'll reiterate, even us killing a Primal only scares the beastmen into summoning their primal again

Then what's the difference between us and the WoD? We're all doing the same thing. Primal gets summoned - yeah, Ascian victory, no one denies that. But by that logic, our victory over it would just as equally fuel the next Darkness feat. And if you say beating the Primal is a victory to the Light, why did the WoD defeat Ravana? There has to be something to have made their victory not tilt the scales back, to still have made it worthwhile for them to bother. So far, the only thing setting us and them apart seems to be whose proxies we were at the time the deed was done.