SHADOWBRINGERS

[ChaoticCrimson]

Has it? Where?

And an actual Warrior of Light or just someone with the Echo?


Also until we get more information about Her origins, it's still only a theory that Hydaelyn is "technically a primal".

As far as I'm aware, we know the Ascians are typically skilled with the Echo, which allows them to transcend mortal existence in the way they do as well as even allowing two of them to fuse as one. But while(most of) the Ascians are named for the Scions of Light that are in relation to FFXII's Espers, I don't recall the game ever explicitly stating any of them were ever at any time a WoL. I could be mistaken, however.

[Dualgunner]

I dunno, I still don't buy that it's so much we've tipped the scales so hard in Hydaelyn's favor that we're breaking the balance. We're, what, six or seven calamities in, each of which a victory for Darkness, whereas the Light has had no such notable victories on that scale.

In fact, one of our biggest victories was pyrrhic in the long run because it wasted all of Hydaelyn's Hydaelyn-juice: surviving Ultima Weapon's casting of Ultima. Which...again...puts Light at disadvantage to Dark.

Five years ago darkness was winning hands down as far as I understand it, and what meager victories we've achieved don't, at least to my mind, amount to the colossal amount of things our enemies have achieved.

It smacks to me more of "Oh no, Light is finally fighting back. Mommy! Mommy! The balance! We need balance!" whining from the Ascians.

[Melichoir]

I dunno, I still don't buy that it's so much we've tipped the scales so hard in Hydaelyn's favor that we're breaking the balance. We're, what, six or seven calamities in, each of which a victory for Darkness, whereas the Light has had no such notable victories on that scale

The Darkness having "victories" is contingent on where the light has been standing. For example, if in each age, the Darkness was all but obliterated, it wouldve taken a catastrophic event to balance the scales. Or, if we've been sitting in a elongated 'light' age, that the current state of things is actually an attempt to return to normalcy. How much the "darkness is winning" is dependant on what the light is doing this whole time. Something we've not really seen to much of broadly. All we've been getting again and again is "Go and destroy the primals, defeat these things, and everythign will be golden". That same train of thought was was brought the Warriors of Darkness's world to ruin. On their world, they were the WoL, were defeating darkness, and the light ended up messing everything up.

And it is worth noticing that Hydaelyn isnt exactly the greatest thing ever. That she ended up possessing and killing someone (Minfillia) is worth noting, and if the rules primals follows are to be considered, Hydaelyn falls into that camp that even as a large crystal, she could be technically enslaving people too. Who is to say you have real free will yourself, as the WoL? Or that the fact that Zodiark is pretty much imprisoned at this time, yet Hydaelyn is not. Meaning, the light is free to do as it wills, while the dark is prevented. That would point to the scales being tipped well in favor of the light.

I think the ascians like Lahabrea were more of "Lets bring about our Dark Lord cause hes the coolest!", where Elidibus is probably along the more correct lines of neither side having supremacy and restoring a balance.

[kikix12]

The Darkness having "victories" is contingent on where the light has been standing. For example, if in each age, the Darkness was all but obliterated, it wouldve taken a catastrophic event to balance the scales.

Each catastrophy is a victory for darkness. How can you consider light overpowering the darkness in any of the eras if they LOST all of them? For balance to be there, NO CALAMITY can happen. The moment the last calamity does happen (I think it was nine?!) Zodiark will awaken and will overpower Hydealyn that is too weak from constantly trying to win and failing.

That is, of course, assuming Hydaelyn is actually benevolent and is not lying. But as we have no knowledge to the contrary and it is quite obvious that her "no war" policy is more desired than Zodiarks "death and destruction" is more beneficent to humans as a whole (when it does not cause destruction due to excess light, that is), I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. Though there is clearly something that she is not saying that we do not know.

[Melichoir]

Again, its relative to how well the light is doing overall.

Consider the current age: Weve been victorious against....

Titan
Garuda
Ifrit
Shiva
Nidd
Shinryu
Garlemald on numerous occassions
Dragon Space Pope
Diablo (and all Raids connected to Him)
Bismark
Zurvan
Ravana
Sophia
Sephirot
Alaggan Junk
Omega Weapon
Lakshmi
Ultima Weap
Lahabrea and Ascian ilk broadly
Wars of Darkness

These are All victories for the light, so to speak. Story wise, we as the WoL havent actually flat out lost to often. We almost always overcome. Now, if the Ascians ultimate goal is to bring about Zodiark, and the Light was such an easy push over, why isnt Zodiark actually around? Its more likely that every single previous age had similar warriors of Light, doing the exact same thing, and racking up victories over time. We know there were previous WoL cause FFXIV 1.0 Had them, which was before the next age change.

But lets assume that Ascians are losing the battles but winning the war with key victories. This still falls into the bigger point: Hydaelyn is free to to as she pleases, Zodiark is not. This would infer that Hydaelyn and Zodiark were both around and about at the same time at some point, and that Hydaelyn's forces was victorious in defeating Zodiark's forces. As such, we might be living in a "light" era, where she has had supremacy for a while. We wouldnt know this probably because it goes farther back than the races written history. This would mean that broadly, the power dynamic is already tilted towards Hydaelyn and she wants to keep it that way, while Elidibus wants to tilt it back towards neutral. (I point to Elidibus because of the ascians weve seen, hes not so hung up on letting Zodiark free for the sake of "Cause Zodiark is cool", and more for "returning the balance of things.")

Now considering this is a FF game, Its likely that Zodiark is just a big baddy who wants to obliterate everything ultimately with a "I will purge this world and return everything to zero!" nihilistic mentality. But as far as I can remember, we actually know very little about Zodiark, except whats been told to us by proponents for Hydaelyn. Those who are opposed to Hydaelyn have stated that if the light wins to much, that would also result in the ultimate end of the world.

Point is, how well the darkness is doing is completely contingent on things we dont actually know but are assuming to be the case. So far we've been warned by the Warriors of Darkness to be aware that always winning in favor of Hydaelyn can result in a terrible end for the world too. Outside of the Ascians, theyre the first group to tell us to think carefully about proceeding forward.

As for Minfillia, I sppose shes still alive then? That whole sequence was..odd. But for all intensive plot purposes shes out of the picture. But still, she becomes a light sponge on behest of Hydaelyn. This actually gets the Warriors of Darkness to leave, more or less. You know, the people who do pose a threat to Hydaelyn?

Again, Hydaelyn doesnt seem to be exactly operating on the most noble of principles here, and the warning given by teh Warriors of Darkness still stand. Doing Hydaelyns work to much will result in the same fate, and yet here we are, still pushing forward.

[Dualgunner]

Again, its relative to how well the light is doing overall.

Consider the current age: Weve been victorious against....

Titan
Garuda
Ifrit
Shiva
Nidd
Shinryu
Garlemald on numerous occassions
Dragon Space Pope
Diablo (and all Raids connected to Him)
Bismark
Zurvan
Ravana
Sophia
Sephirot
Alaggan Junk
Omega Weapon
Lakshmi
Ultima Weap
Lahabrea and Ascian ilk broadly
Wars of Darkness

These are All victories for the light, so to speak.

Victory for the Light: The Warrior of Light defeats their foe, no matter what that means for the grander scheme of things.
Victory for Darkness: Causing an apocalyptic-level event that at best forces civilizations to adapt to permanently altered climates and casualties in staggering amounts, and at worst literally floods the entire world and wipes entire civilizations off the face of it. These calamities all signalling the end of an era and the merging of one shard into the primary one, which is something as far as I'm aware can't be undone--as opposed to all of the Light's victories so far.

We killed Ifrit, for instance. But he can be re-summoned at a whim. I'd perhaps wipe every victory off that list except for permanently sealing away Igeyorhm and Nabreales, as well as Lahabrea being absorbed by Thordan. Even then, we stomp one and more appear.

[Iscah]

Again, its relative to how well the light is doing overall.

Consider the current age: Weve been victorious against....

Titan
Garuda
Ifrit
Shiva
Nidd
Shinryu
Garlemald on numerous occassions
Dragon Space Pope
Diablo (and all Raids connected to Him)
Bismark
Zurvan
Ravana
Sophia
Sephirot
Alaggan Junk
Omega Weapon
Lakshmi
Ultima Weap
Lahabrea and Ascian ilk broadly
Wars of Darkness

These are All victories for the light, so to speak.

I think you're confusing victories by the Warrior of Light with victories for the Light.

Primals need to be defeated to prevent them from draining the land's aether, and yet each defeat drives the anger and desperation of the beast tribes. We are essentially playing into the Ascians' plans.

Ultima - a 'victory for the Light' but one that came at great cost to Hydaelyn's strength when She shielded us from Ultima. (It's only after this that she 'summons' Minfilia to act as Her voice. Was it somehow necessary? We're lacking answers about why it happened.)

Nabriales and the Chrysalis - we thwarted some kind of Ascian scheme to acquire Tupsimati and kidnap Minfilia for... some kind of unknown purpose. (That makes me think - did Hydaelyn 'take' Minfilia so she'd be beyond Ascian reach? Is there something special about her?) Anyway, it was more preventing a gain for Darkness than winning a gain for Light. Nabriales' defeat might be a win, but only if his position isn't simply filled by promoting a lesser Ascian to his place. (The lorebook also notes that Nabriales had "far less raw power than the likes of Lahabrea and Elidibus".)

The Binding Coil - prevented further chaos from a reborn Bahamut, and returned its aether to the land. Is this a win for the Light, or is the natural flow of aether a separate, 'neutral' element to the conflict?

Thordan - this is an interesting one, and I've just got to this point with my alt charater. Thordan outplayed Lahabrea and things didn't go to plan. What was the Ascians' original intent? Increased conflict with the dragons? A long-term plan to get hold of Nidhogg's eyes? Regardless, it went wrong and Lahabrea was (apparently) destroyed by the primal he taught Thordan to create.
The post-credits scene is particularly interesting. Elidibus says he will need to take more active measures to fix the balance. This seems to be specifically calling on the Warrior of Darkness, but in light of recent events, that may not be his only intent.

The Warring Triad - not an increase for the Light, but a prevention of great chaos... and yet apparently Elidibus is pulling strings somewhere in the background (via Unukalhai) to get us to do this. And if Mr "Balance is Everything" who considers our recent victories inconvenient wants us to do something, I have to wonder about the long-term implications...

Nidhogg - one of our few true victories, winning peace for Ishgard - and yet it also left the Eyes free for the taking.

Warriors of Darkness - listing this as a victory is oversimplifying it. We defeated them in the battle instance but that wasn't the end of it.
Again it was Elidibus who had a hand in this from the start - guiding them to believe that the only way they could save their world was to bring about a Calamity in this one. (Though with some kind of counter-machinations from Urianger - I forget the details but will be playing through that part again soon.)

Diablos, Omega and other raids - perhaps our best examples of actual victories. And yet they tend to be high-stakes world-destroying events... and the Ascians don't necessarily want that to happen either.


The tricky question through all of this: what drives the balance of Light and Darkness? Do we need to actively create Light somehow or does it increase naturally as the number of Dark-aspected beings in the world lessens? Is Hydaelyn ideally able to 'feed on light' and keep it in check, but currently starved and weakened to the point She can't even reach out and do this?

There are so many unknowns, and we'll have to wait and see what revelations we get in the future.

This would mean that broadly, the power dynamic is already tilted towards Hydaelyn and she wants to keep it that way, while Elidibus wants to tilt it back towards neutral. (I point to Elidibus because of the ascians weve seen, hes not so hung up on letting Zodiark free for the sake of "Cause Zodiark is cool", and more for "returning the balance of things.")

Elidibus wants balance - but that's because letting the world fall to either Darkness or Light makes it useless to Zodiark. By necessity, the Ascians' goal requires them to push the world to the brink of disaster without letting it topple over into the void. It's Elidibus's job to make sure that doesn't happen, especially since Igeyorhm already ruined the Thirteenth Shard this way.

Because of this, he's playing both sides. To quote the lorebook: "He has shown himself willing to lend his counsel and aid to the Scions, the embodiments of the Light. Nevertheless, his loyalty to Zodiark - the will within the Darkness - is absolute."

[Iscah]

And it is worth noticing that Hydaelyn isnt exactly the greatest thing ever. That she ended up possessing and killing someone (Minfillia) is worth noting [...]

Possessing, yes, but Minfilia isn't dead, just... transcended? And currently on an active mission to prevent the Warriors' world from being fully destroyed by light.

Who knows what's going to happen with her later? The story isn't over yet, and I don't think her part is over, either.

[Vespar]

Possessing, yes, but Minfilia isn't dead, just... transcended? And currently on an active mission to prevent the Warriors' world from being fully destroyed by light.

Who knows what's going to happen with her later? The story isn't over yet, and I don't think her part is over, either.

I agree that Minfillia isnt dead,

and I'm thinking she was "called" to another world maybe by Hydaelyn? (Now that we kind of have that "calling" thing going on, I wonder if Minfillia isnt pulling the scions to wherever she is.). Also I'd like to know more of the "rejoining" which also has yet to be fully detailed.... (if it was detailed in Eureka, I havent finished Pyros yet...)

[Iscah]

I agree that Minfillia isnt dead,

and I'm thinking she was "called" to another world maybe by Hydaelyn? (Now that we kind of have that "calling" thing going on, I wonder if Minfillia isnt pulling the scions to wherever she is.) and failing being called, perhaps its Hydalyns version of "rejoining" which also has yet to be fully detailed.... (if it was detailed in Eureka, I havent finished Pyros yet...)

I don't have the quote right now because it was from a voiced cutscene (so not available in the text log) but...

as I remember it, the final scene with the Warriors of Darkness had Minfilia (or maybe Hydaelyn-as-Minfilia) specifically saying she would travel to their world to absorb the excess light and prevent it from being destroyed. I can't remember if we heard Hydaelyn speak directly or not.