SHADOWBRINGERS

[Dualgunner]

I dunno, I still don't buy that it's so much we've tipped the scales so hard in Hydaelyn's favor that we're breaking the balance. We're, what, six or seven calamities in, each of which a victory for Darkness, whereas the Light has had no such notable victories on that scale.

In fact, one of our biggest victories was pyrrhic in the long run because it wasted all of Hydaelyn's Hydaelyn-juice: surviving Ultima Weapon's casting of Ultima. Which...again...puts Light at disadvantage to Dark.

Five years ago darkness was winning hands down as far as I understand it, and what meager victories we've achieved don't, at least to my mind, amount to the colossal amount of things our enemies have achieved.

It smacks to me more of "Oh no, Light is finally fighting back. Mommy! Mommy! The balance! We need balance!" whining from the Ascians.

[Melichoir]

I dunno, I still don't buy that it's so much we've tipped the scales so hard in Hydaelyn's favor that we're breaking the balance. We're, what, six or seven calamities in, each of which a victory for Darkness, whereas the Light has had no such notable victories on that scale

The Darkness having "victories" is contingent on where the light has been standing. For example, if in each age, the Darkness was all but obliterated, it wouldve taken a catastrophic event to balance the scales. Or, if we've been sitting in a elongated 'light' age, that the current state of things is actually an attempt to return to normalcy. How much the "darkness is winning" is dependant on what the light is doing this whole time. Something we've not really seen to much of broadly. All we've been getting again and again is "Go and destroy the primals, defeat these things, and everythign will be golden". That same train of thought was was brought the Warriors of Darkness's world to ruin. On their world, they were the WoL, were defeating darkness, and the light ended up messing everything up.

And it is worth noticing that Hydaelyn isnt exactly the greatest thing ever. That she ended up possessing and killing someone (Minfillia) is worth noting, and if the rules primals follows are to be considered, Hydaelyn falls into that camp that even as a large crystal, she could be technically enslaving people too. Who is to say you have real free will yourself, as the WoL? Or that the fact that Zodiark is pretty much imprisoned at this time, yet Hydaelyn is not. Meaning, the light is free to do as it wills, while the dark is prevented. That would point to the scales being tipped well in favor of the light.

I think the ascians like Lahabrea were more of "Lets bring about our Dark Lord cause hes the coolest!", where Elidibus is probably along the more correct lines of neither side having supremacy and restoring a balance.

[kikix12]

The Darkness having "victories" is contingent on where the light has been standing. For example, if in each age, the Darkness was all but obliterated, it wouldve taken a catastrophic event to balance the scales.

Each catastrophy is a victory for darkness. How can you consider light overpowering the darkness in any of the eras if they LOST all of them? For balance to be there, NO CALAMITY can happen. The moment the last calamity does happen (I think it was nine?!) Zodiark will awaken and will overpower Hydealyn that is too weak from constantly trying to win and failing.

That is, of course, assuming Hydaelyn is actually benevolent and is not lying. But as we have no knowledge to the contrary and it is quite obvious that her "no war" policy is more desired than Zodiarks "death and destruction" is more beneficent to humans as a whole (when it does not cause destruction due to excess light, that is), I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. Though there is clearly something that she is not saying that we do not know.

[Iscah]

And it is worth noticing that Hydaelyn isnt exactly the greatest thing ever. That she ended up possessing and killing someone (Minfillia) is worth noting [...]

Possessing, yes, but Minfilia isn't dead, just... transcended? And currently on an active mission to prevent the Warriors' world from being fully destroyed by light.

Who knows what's going to happen with her later? The story isn't over yet, and I don't think her part is over, either.

[Vespar]

Possessing, yes, but Minfilia isn't dead, just... transcended? And currently on an active mission to prevent the Warriors' world from being fully destroyed by light.

Who knows what's going to happen with her later? The story isn't over yet, and I don't think her part is over, either.

I agree that Minfillia isnt dead,

and I'm thinking she was "called" to another world maybe by Hydaelyn? (Now that we kind of have that "calling" thing going on, I wonder if Minfillia isnt pulling the scions to wherever she is.). Also I'd like to know more of the "rejoining" which also has yet to be fully detailed.... (if it was detailed in Eureka, I havent finished Pyros yet...)

[Iscah]

I agree that Minfillia isnt dead,

and I'm thinking she was "called" to another world maybe by Hydaelyn? (Now that we kind of have that "calling" thing going on, I wonder if Minfillia isnt pulling the scions to wherever she is.) and failing being called, perhaps its Hydalyns version of "rejoining" which also has yet to be fully detailed.... (if it was detailed in Eureka, I havent finished Pyros yet...)

I don't have the quote right now because it was from a voiced cutscene (so not available in the text log) but...

as I remember it, the final scene with the Warriors of Darkness had Minfilia (or maybe Hydaelyn-as-Minfilia) specifically saying she would travel to their world to absorb the excess light and prevent it from being destroyed. I can't remember if we heard Hydaelyn speak directly or not.

[Melichoir]

Again, its relative to how well the light is doing overall.

Consider the current age: Weve been victorious against....

Titan
Garuda
Ifrit
Shiva
Nidd
Shinryu
Garlemald on numerous occassions
Dragon Space Pope
Diablo (and all Raids connected to Him)
Bismark
Zurvan
Ravana
Sophia
Sephirot
Alaggan Junk
Omega Weapon
Lakshmi
Ultima Weap
Lahabrea and Ascian ilk broadly
Wars of Darkness

These are All victories for the light, so to speak. Story wise, we as the WoL havent actually flat out lost to often. We almost always overcome. Now, if the Ascians ultimate goal is to bring about Zodiark, and the Light was such an easy push over, why isnt Zodiark actually around? Its more likely that every single previous age had similar warriors of Light, doing the exact same thing, and racking up victories over time. We know there were previous WoL cause FFXIV 1.0 Had them, which was before the next age change.

But lets assume that Ascians are losing the battles but winning the war with key victories. This still falls into the bigger point: Hydaelyn is free to to as she pleases, Zodiark is not. This would infer that Hydaelyn and Zodiark were both around and about at the same time at some point, and that Hydaelyn's forces was victorious in defeating Zodiark's forces. As such, we might be living in a "light" era, where she has had supremacy for a while. We wouldnt know this probably because it goes farther back than the races written history. This would mean that broadly, the power dynamic is already tilted towards Hydaelyn and she wants to keep it that way, while Elidibus wants to tilt it back towards neutral. (I point to Elidibus because of the ascians weve seen, hes not so hung up on letting Zodiark free for the sake of "Cause Zodiark is cool", and more for "returning the balance of things.")

Now considering this is a FF game, Its likely that Zodiark is just a big baddy who wants to obliterate everything ultimately with a "I will purge this world and return everything to zero!" nihilistic mentality. But as far as I can remember, we actually know very little about Zodiark, except whats been told to us by proponents for Hydaelyn. Those who are opposed to Hydaelyn have stated that if the light wins to much, that would also result in the ultimate end of the world.

Point is, how well the darkness is doing is completely contingent on things we dont actually know but are assuming to be the case. So far we've been warned by the Warriors of Darkness to be aware that always winning in favor of Hydaelyn can result in a terrible end for the world too. Outside of the Ascians, theyre the first group to tell us to think carefully about proceeding forward.

As for Minfillia, I sppose shes still alive then? That whole sequence was..odd. But for all intensive plot purposes shes out of the picture. But still, she becomes a light sponge on behest of Hydaelyn. This actually gets the Warriors of Darkness to leave, more or less. You know, the people who do pose a threat to Hydaelyn?

Again, Hydaelyn doesnt seem to be exactly operating on the most noble of principles here, and the warning given by teh Warriors of Darkness still stand. Doing Hydaelyns work to much will result in the same fate, and yet here we are, still pushing forward.

[Dualgunner]

Again, its relative to how well the light is doing overall.

Consider the current age: Weve been victorious against....

Titan
Garuda
Ifrit
Shiva
Nidd
Shinryu
Garlemald on numerous occassions
Dragon Space Pope
Diablo (and all Raids connected to Him)
Bismark
Zurvan
Ravana
Sophia
Sephirot
Alaggan Junk
Omega Weapon
Lakshmi
Ultima Weap
Lahabrea and Ascian ilk broadly
Wars of Darkness

These are All victories for the light, so to speak.

Victory for the Light: The Warrior of Light defeats their foe, no matter what that means for the grander scheme of things.
Victory for Darkness: Causing an apocalyptic-level event that at best forces civilizations to adapt to permanently altered climates and casualties in staggering amounts, and at worst literally floods the entire world and wipes entire civilizations off the face of it. These calamities all signalling the end of an era and the merging of one shard into the primary one, which is something as far as I'm aware can't be undone--as opposed to all of the Light's victories so far.

We killed Ifrit, for instance. But he can be re-summoned at a whim. I'd perhaps wipe every victory off that list except for permanently sealing away Igeyorhm and Nabreales, as well as Lahabrea being absorbed by Thordan. Even then, we stomp one and more appear.

[Vespar]

I don't have the quote right now because it was from a voiced cutscene (so not available in the text log) but...

as I remember it, the final scene with the Warriors of Darkness had Minfilia (or maybe Hydaelyn-as-Minfilia) specifically saying she would travel to their world to absorb the excess light and prevent it from being destroyed. I can't remember if we heard Hydaelyn speak directly or not.

That's RIGHT! I totally forgot about that.

Well then, it makes my hypothesis a lot more plausible. Perhaps she is the one "calling" the scions to the world drenched in too much Light?

[Melichoir]

Victory for the Light: The Warrior of Light defeats their foe, no matter what that means for the grander scheme of things.
Victory for Darkness: Causing an apocalyptic-level event that at best forces civilizations to adapt to permanently altered climates and casualties in staggering amounts, and at worst literally floods the entire world and wipes entire civilizations off the face of it. These calamities all signalling the end of an era and the merging of one shard into the primary one, which is something as far as I'm aware can't be undone--as opposed to all of the Light's victories so far.

We killed Ifrit, for instance. But he can be re-summoned at a whim. I'd perhaps wipe every victory off that list except for permanently sealing away Igeyorhm and Nabreales, as well as Lahabrea being absorbed by Thordan. Even then, we stomp one and more appear.

I think your overselling the calamities. They caused prominent civilizations with a region to falter/collapse, but that doesnt always mean the absolute obliteration of everything, as we can see that we're all still here (so to speak) and knowledge and technology marches forward. Again, this is in relationship to how well the light is doing. I keep pointing that out because in the grander scheme of things, its Zodiark whos locked up, not Hydaelyn, when both are implied to be necessary for balance. And for Zodiark to have been locked up, what kind of battle was waged and on what scale to have that outcome. An outcome that is a clear and decisive victory for Hydaelyn, where all calamities, while thus far terrible, still havent spelled defeat or doom for Hydaelyn.

A subtle note to my point is the WoL is either damage control, or operating on continuing the current status quo, where the Ascians are operating on ending the current status quo and returning it to the former one (however far back that is). For some ascians, its cause Zodiark is best god. But for others (Elidibus) its for returning things to the intended state. A sentiment that has implications that IF things continue uncontested for Hydaelyn, everything gets screwed. Just like what happened on the Warriors of Darkness homeworld.

There are a lot of questions to actually think about. Like this for example:

If Hydaelyn remains unchecked, the conclusion is the world gets enveloped by light and destroyed, as demonstrated on other worlds when one side of the spectrum gains to much power (Creatures from the void are from worlds that fell into darkness). So, in making sure things are kept in check, does that means the ascians and their actions are necessary evils?