#NerfBRD

[Dualgunner]

It does when you aren't nerfing BRD to a point people wouldn't take it. In fact, BLM is a perfect example of this. Its damage is monstrous, and it's essentially considered equal to SMN yet its popularity didn't move much this tier. Why? It's never been a popular job at any stage due to its gameplay.

And yet, Black Mages no longer feel like an absolute detriment to their party--which is the point of buffs and nerfs.

MCH falls in the same category. A 5% nerf to BRD tomorrow isn't going to put much of a dent in any statistic because a huge issue with MCH is its gameplay.

But Machinists won't feel like as much of a detriment to their party--are we seeing a theme yet?--and feel more comfortable within their own job in the static.

I don't disagree with BRD getting brought down a little—never have this entire time—just with the notion MCH's popularity will suddenly jump start over it when at no point in two expansions has MCH ever been popular.

Just because it's not going to be a binary "MCH is now the prettiest girl in school" doesn't mean nothing should be done about the rock and a hard place it's in.

You just said lots of people dislike SMN yet its currently fourth place amongst the DPS because of meta. Why didn't this apply to MCH? During Deltascape it was widely better than all the Casters yet still the least played job.

You'll have to forgive me, but evidence to this claim? I never looked at the upload numbers for Delta when it was active, however I still have to hold a healthy amount of skepticism. I know during Sigma it became true, but during Sigma is when Summoner took over.

Once again, my point hasn't been damage related but this idea MCH will suddenly become popular when it's never occurred before.

You're honestly kind of all over the place without a clear point. MCH's popularity is a symptom of it being a badly designed job, but BRD's overpopularity is a symptom of a lot of things, ranging from its simplified design, compatibility with every group type, be that giving everyone else buffs, or everyone else's buffs meaning so much more for Bard because of how its crit scaling and burst works.

I never said BRD couldn't be nerfed. Don't put words in my mouth.

I never said that you did. Don't put words in my mouth. That is, however, the general argument against this thread's proposal, so you'll have to forgive me addressing it in the grander scheme of things.

I said, for the third time, it won't abruptly make MCH popular with its current gameplay. I only tagged into this discussion on that premise.

The rising tide floats all boats. Bard dropping from 21% of all DPS uploads means everybody else's participation rates rise, including Machinist.

Regardless, the issue with BRD is how it scales, which will not be touched until 5.0. Hence why I said earlier they aren't going to just slap a 5% nerf on BRD for six months then readjust everything all over again six months later.

They've done weirder for balance before.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You'll have to forgive me, but evidence to this claim? I never looked at the upload numbers for Delta when it was active, however I still have to hold a healthy amount of skepticism. I know during Sigma it became true, but during Sigma is when Summoner took over.

Sadly, FFlogs only tracks two weeks. So Deltascape wouldn't be an accurate representation anymore. Even using those numbers though, MCH only barely pulled ahead of BLM, which was in arguably the worst state its ever been in at that point.

You're honestly kind of all over the place without a clear point. MCH's popularity is a symptom of it being a badly designed job, but BRD's overpopularity is a symptom of a lot of things, ranging from its simplified design, compatibility with every group type, be that giving everyone else buffs, or everyone else's buffs meaning so much more for Bard because of how its crit scaling and burst works.

The point is BRD has always been exceedingly popular whereas MCH has never been popular. The only time BRD showed a dip is throughout Heavensward primarily because of cast times. I'll acknowledge its speculative hence why I said I sincerely doubt a nerf of any kind will change the landscape. That will only occur with an overhaul. Look at DRK. It's numbers barely budged despite the buffs it received before Alphascape. People don't like the DA spam. So they just aren't playing it.

They've done weirder for balance before.

Feel free to correct if I'm wrong, but they have never nerfed a job mid-tier by 5% since Heavensward. It has always been buffs or very negligible nerfs. Expecting them to change that stance less than a year before 5.0 is setting yourself up for disappointment.

[MPNZ]

What are we arguing about again?

Basically, everyone is just taking their frustarations over their mains on BRD again...

And using DPS numbers which mean nothing as brd is wanted for just its utility...

And, because most jobs do not bring enough utility or inspire different party compositions in raids and stuff besides red mage....

Quite a discussion I'm seeing here. What I hope for is that the dev team considers what is being said here since this is constructive debate, and could lead to them thinking up something either great, or...something else. ...I still think the consensus is that the DPS Role has a lot of stigma when it comes to Raid Buffs.

If they want to change it, they need to fix A LOT of things to make every job desirable instead of "Take BRD because it buffs everything".

Totes, and they just need to remove sidewinder from PvE or give other jobs actual utility abilities that would make them attractive to group content and stop making jobs a total mess with a lack of meaning and actions that feel empty and without weight to them. And, actually address their problems like giving BLM the ability to teleport between N S E W points, an ability to shift those nodes to go NE NW SE SW, a 7 second invincibility ogcd that also prevents the player from attacking by shift into the void, and then decrease the number of wasted space similarly to how stone was handled for whm.

My thought on MCH are on the first and second pages

I hope nothing in the game going forward is buffed to the ridiculous level BRD is now no matter any disadvantages they've seen in the past. At the end of the day BRD is taking up far too much space and the only answers to that fact are ignoring it or bringing it in line with casters and MCH. Since BRDs seem very opposed to losing utility it seems like the best option becomes dps nerfs.

It's not really BRD it's actually because the other jobs need to have an impact to the party or just abilities to fix some of thier short comings. Like having to be a stationary turret in an MMO with bosses like Talurd.

[Grimoire-M]

Basically, everyone is just taking their frustarations over their mains on BRD again...

And using DPS numbers which mean nothing as brd is wanted for just its utility...

BRD's utility isn't all of it. They also gain the most from crit rate raid buffs such as Chain Stratagem, Spear, and Battle Litany, which can push their spike DPS levels high enough in order to match selfish DPS. All of BRD's procs are based on their DoTs critting, and you can essentially double their crit rate in ideal conditions, but often bump it up enough to reliably spam through the majority of Ballad and hit Pitch Perfect between every GCD in Minuet. Keep in mind they can also snapshot these buffs in order to prolong their benefits too.

A Dragoon is capable of nearly matching BRD's raid contribution just by grouping with both Ranged DPS, through a combination of Litany and Piercing.

A Ninja already comes close to matching what a BRD can do via TA alone.

A Scholar can match it with Chain and Selene.

BRD, however, utilizes raid dps buffs better than any other class currently. They are too weak without them and too strong with them. That is the problem.

Their exclusive non-dps utility isn't even that good. I'd take Dismantle over Minne/Troubadour in Savage any day. Refresh is broken and MCH is weak and clunky.

And, because most jobs do not bring enough utility or inspire different party compositions in raids and stuff besides red mage....

All RDM brings right now is raise. SMN outclasses it in every aspect. And even can raise in prog still. Embolden is good with enough melee/ranged dps but terrible with a single co-caster.

Totes, and they just need to remove sidewinder from PvE or give other jobs actual utility abilities that would make them attractive to group content and stop making jobs a total mess with a lack of meaning and actions that feel empty and without weight to them. And, actually address their problems like giving BLM the ability to teleport between N S E W points, an ability to shift those nodes to go NE NW SE SW, a 7 second invincibility ogcd that also prevents the player from attacking by shift into the void, and then decrease the number of wasted space similarly to how stone was handled for whm.

BLM is fine. It's probably the most well balanced class at the moment. Yes it has mobility issues but it can circumvent them with enough player experience, fight knowledge, and adapting to procs (lest you want to be rescued out of F1 for greeding). It's the one class that doesn't -need- to be changed at all in this entire expansion, but would appreciate it nonetheless.

[MPNZ]

BRD's utility isn't all of it. They also gain the most from crit rate raid buffs such as Chain Stratagem, Spear, and Battle Litany, which can push their spike DPS levels high enough in order to match selfish DPS. All of BRD's procs are based on their DoTs critting, and you can essentially double their crit rate in ideal conditions, but often bump it up enough to reliably spam through the majority of Ballad and hit Pitch Perfect between every GCD in Minuet. Keep in mind they can also snapshot these buffs in order to prolong their benefits too.

Hmm, maybe they should increase the number of jobs that benefit from crit buffs or add benefits to other job gauges like making ley lines help fill gauges or decreasing the time it takes to fill the LB bars. that way other jobs can become more rewarding to both play and increase their desirability in raids

A Dragoon is capable of nearly matching BRD's raid contribution just by grouping with both Ranged DPS, through a combination of Litany and Piercing.

A Ninja already comes close to matching what a BRD can do via TA alone.

A Scholar can match it with Chain and Selene.

BRD, however, utilizes raid dps buffs better than any other class currently. They are too weak without them and too strong with them. That is the problem.

Which is why nerfing them could just end up repeating the problem caused by the first nerfs to the class did solo for play making them just a dps-in-name-only again. It would be better to give nin and mnk limited time utility actions to distract bosses so hlrs can revive the tank or the rest of the party. And, changing how bard is played away from what the player base has enjoyed has been a disaster as well. Increasing how other jobs contribute to the party is a way better solution, IMO. Like, maybe giving WHMs an OGCD that creates large stone wall to avoid wipes from behemoth's meteor spell et cetera, or just mitigate it to avoid a complete party wipe.

This is somewhat related, but there are several reasons why ranged physicals will never see grenade shot and wide volley again. Despite players wanting to see thie return: the actions allow ranged physical classes to dps down swarms of melee ranged mobs at a far enough distance for enemy attack to be out of range, which is an advantage shared only by that class and possibly give players an unfair advantage in pvp

Their exclusive non-dps utility isn't even that good. I'd take Dismantle over Minne/Troubadour in Savage any day. Refresh is broken and MCH is weak and clunky.

Actually, I was thinking that it would work just like sacred soil witha 1.25 healing potency buff for hlrs standing inside if it. Though, an aetheric collector would also be really beneficial. And, refresh is 100% necessary for both of the Physical ranged classes. It's literally the reason party compositions always had a bard since 2.0...

All RDM brings right now is raise. SMN outclasses it in every aspect. And even can raise in prog still. Embolden is good with enough melee/ranged dps but terrible with a single co-caster.

Yeah, rdm totally needs some buffing because of how powerful smn is right now

BLM is fine. It's probably the most well balanced class at the moment. Yes it has mobility issues but it can circumvent them with enough player experience, fight knowledge, and adapting to procs (lest you want to be rescued out of F1 for greeding). It's the one class that doesn't -need- to be changed at all in this entire expansion, but would appreciate it nonetheless.

They usually always wipe first though. I've literally had to just give up on healing certain players because of situations where payers seriously just sit in aoes, and like most of them in the beginning (ARR) were blms, which is the reason I suggested it. It's more evenly spread out between the jobs now

[lulunami]

Their exclusive non-dps utility isn't even that good. I'd take Dismantle over Minne/Troubadour in Savage any day. Refresh is broken and MCH is weak and clunky.

I disagree about Dismantle. Dismantle can be covered by Addle, Reprisal, or Feint. Minne is underrated. A healing buff that lasts 15 seconds every 45 seconds is so much better. A healer can potentially get a buffed Regen for 36+ seconds (even longer with WHM regen) every use of Nature's Minne. Basically every HoT heal casted by AST/WHM will be buffed by Minne.


Troubadour has a 30 second duration so for extended periods of damage, you can get more effective use of it.

[Grimoire-M]

-snip-

I'm well aware of what Troubadour can do. I played BRD through kefka and had it up for all of the worst parts of Forsaken. I'd still take Dismantle over it. Frequency of use balances out its low duration. You see more hard hitting mechanics spread out in 1 minute increments compared to a harder phases for 30 seconds every three minutes.

Minne is nice but optional. I've had it up for busters and even saved people from death in combination with a healer but it's still not required by any means, and I could still do that with Dismantle without needing healer input. It's just another reason why Dismantle is better in the majority of fights. Regen padding is rather meaningless when you can lean on SCH buffing their fairy with Rouse or using Fey Union, or trust a WHM/AST to make use of Largesse on their regens. You can use it on busters and Raid AoE based on what your healers and tanks need or pop it in an emergency. And Dismantle even stacks with every one of those debuffs you mentioned. It's a Reprisal you can stack with a tank's own Reprisal, which is effectively 19% damage reduction when paired together. There are a lot more hard hitting AoEs you could mitigate with that combo alone that would make padding the 30s phases you'd want to use Troubadour for a lot easier because it deals with the worst spikes leading up to or within those phases (enabling a healer to shuffle their cooldowns to compensate), or you can stagger them for a Troubadour-like effect if needed with minimal coordination required.

Dismantle is underrated. Troubadour and Minne are overrated. It's MCH's damage and raid buff that holds it back. Not its non-dps utility. It's equally powerful but different.

Edit: Corrected.