#NerfBRD

[Bourne_Endeavor]

It will at least change the climate to not be 1/5DPS are Bards.

Except... it wouldn't be. BRD's popularity is not only in how good the game is, but how it's arguably the best designed job in the expansion. People like it's gameplay, not simply it's damage. Nerfing BRD won't change the landscape right now whatsoever because people dislike MCH's gameplay by and large. Will you see more MCHs? Sure, but the numbers aren't going to swing from 43k BRD to half that. Nor will MCH suddenly balloon upwards. At best, you'll see a handful more MCHs. And even that is being generous given how universally disliked the Stormblood iteration has been. A nerfed BRD will still be overwhelmingly preferred for its gameplay.

Because Bard has been that good through the whole expansion. Bard's commanded a lead over every other DPS this whole expansion, I'd wager. Or are you insinuating that Bard wasn't the bread and butter back in Deltascape?

My point was MCH was meta at varying points this expansion; both throughout Deltascape and into early Sigma. Dismantle was also considered better for UcoB. Despite its highly competitive status, people still wouldn't play it. MCH spent all of Deltascape dead last in terms of popularity. Hence why nerfing BRD, which I don't inherently disagree with, won't change the landscape.

And it's unfair to paint points I make to two separate people as directed towards you alone.

You were the one who made the silly assertion nerfing BRD would bolster MCH from 1:8 ratio to 1:2.5. Hence my response, which I covered above, thus I don't need to reiterate it again.

One assertion is that Bard having 5% less damage flat out makes it deadweight. I pointed out that according to the data we have, at the time when Bard -was- 5% behind Machinist, the ratio was much more favorable. People still played Bard more, but there were also more Machinists.

I said dead weight without a DRG. Don't omit part of my statement when making your argument. Furthermore, your argument is self defeating. BRD was still overwhelmingly popular in Deltascape—significantly more so than MCH. The argument between us has never been MCH shouldn't do more damage, but merely you're assertion nerfing BRD would abruptly make MCH go from sub 8k to well beyond double when it's been the least popular job since Heavensward.

[Dualgunner]

Except... it wouldn't be. BRD's popularity is not only in how good the game is, but how it's arguably the best designed job in the expansion. People like it's gameplay, not simply it's damage.

People liking its gameplay wouldn't mean much if it wasn't also one of the best jobs to have in your team. People liked RDM, but once it became more cemented that the job was really only good for progression, it fell off. People liked SAM and BLM, but again, as more and more people realized that they didn't bring the adequate damage to compensate for the fact they're not team players.

Conversely, lots of people dislike SMN. They like the idea of being a SMN well enough, but they hate how SMN has been implemented in this game, and there are always criticisms of its gameplay whether that be its awkward three-segment-rotation, bahamut not being responsive enough, and egis being underwhelming. In my experience, it's about as clunky as MCH. Yet, because it brings the damage, it's the most played caster, even after nerfs blowing RDM and BLM out of the water and is the fourth most played job this tier, right behind the Meta Three.

Nerfing BRD won't change the landscape right now whatsoever because people dislike MCH's gameplay by and large. Will you see more MCHs? Sure, but the numbers aren't going to swing from 43k BRD to half that. Nor will MCH suddenly balloon upwards. At best, you'll see a handful more MCHs. And even that is being generous given how universally disliked the Stormblood iteration has been. A nerfed BRD will still be overwhelmingly preferred for its gameplay.

At best you'll see a handful more MCHs...and a lot of people who prefer playing MCH will be able to justify to themselves their desire to play their favorite job to their party, instead of quietly swapping to BRD themselves because of how much better it is for its own slot.

This is like saying SMN shouldn't have seen a slight nerf at the end of Sigma because it didn't immediately make BLM or RDM the most preferred jobs. No, BLM and RDM aren't suddenly as or more popular than SMN, but it's a damn sight easier to justify being a RDM now because I'm not dragging rDPS down by a huge margin when playing my preferred job. Even then, it was only a slight nerf to SMN, and a buff to both RDM and BLM--something the likes of which could be done for MCH in relation to BRD.

My point was MCH was meta at varying points this expansion; both throughout Deltascape and into early Sigma. Dismantle was also considered better for UcoB. Despite its highly competitive status, people still wouldn't play it. MCH spent all of Deltascape dead last in terms of popularity. Hence why nerfing BRD, which I don't inherently disagree with, won't change the landscape.

It was meta because the casters were garbage through most of this expansion. What flavor of garbage did you want, the turret that needs the whole party to adjust to it and doesn't reward the party for strategies that do so (BLM)? A slightly less turret that did less damage than even BRD at certain places (RDM)? Or a jumbled mess of mechanics and spells that the devs kind of barfed up and hoped was good (SMN)? ...or perhaps, Machinist, who not only didn't need to be adjusted to, but was just as mobile as bard, but enhanced bard's burst potential and increased healer damage potential even more?

Notice into Sigmascape, Summoner was what overtook Machinist. Summoner was fixed up a bit and given a gigantic damage upgrade, getting close to being the highest damaging job in the game. As well, whenever Machinist buffs are brought up, it's casters who need to be considered because they're the ones MCH would compete against--not BRD. Which brings us back to...Machinist cannot be buffed, but its competitor apparently cannot be nerfed.

Currently mch is being left out and overshadowed in meta by casters/brd, because it has less to contribute and people would rather have overpowered casters with raise than a gun wielding clunky class.
Mch deserves better.

I wouldn't say it's the casters that are OP in this equation. When MCH has to fight for a completely separate spot in the team than BRD, despite the intent being that it competed with BRD, I don't think it's the jobs that traditionally fight for the fourth spot that are to blame.

[Kabooa]

I said dead weight without a DRG. Don't omit part of my statement when making your argument. Furthermore, your argument is self defeating. BRD was still overwhelmingly popular in Deltascape—significantly more so than MCH. The argument between us has never been MCH shouldn't do more damage, but merely you're assertion nerfing BRD would abruptly make MCH go from sub 8k to well beyond double when it's been the least popular job since Heavensward.

Not every Bard and Machinist has a dragoon. Bard and Machinist easily bring their fair share without Dragoon.

As I stated, the amount of tools they bring only makes sense in the scenario where Dragoon isn't there. Claiming that somehow Bard is deadweight without Dragoon is false. The -dragoon- is dead weight without the Bard, because Ninja, Monk, and Samurai are all better when no Ranged role is in the party.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

People liking its gameplay wouldn't mean much if it wasn't also one of the best jobs to have in your team. People liked RDM, but once it became more cemented that the job was really only good for progression, it fell off. People liked SAM and BLM, but again, as more and more people realized that they didn't bring the adequate damage to compensate for the fact they're not team players.

It does when you aren't nerfing BRD to a point people wouldn't take it. In fact, BLM is a perfect example of this. Its damage is monstrous, and it's essentially considered equal to SMN yet its popularity didn't move much this tier. Why? It's never been a popular job at any stage due to its gameplay. MCH falls in the same category. A 5% nerf to BRD tomorrow isn't going to put much of a dent in any statistic because a huge issue with MCH is its gameplay. I don't disagree with BRD getting brought down a little—never have this entire time—just with the notion MCH's popularity will suddenly jump start over it when at no point in two expansions has MCH ever been popular.

It was meta because the casters were garbage through most of this expansion. What flavor of garbage did you want, the turret that needs the whole party to adjust to it and doesn't reward the party for strategies that do so (BLM)? A slightly less turret that did less damage than even BRD at certain places (RDM)? Or a jumbled mess of mechanics and spells that the devs kind of barfed up and hoped was good (SMN)? ...or perhaps, Machinist, who not only didn't need to be adjusted to, but was just as mobile as bard, but enhanced bard's burst potential and increased healer damage potential even more?

You just said lots of people dislike SMN yet its currently fourth place amongst the DPS because of meta. Why didn't this apply to MCH? During Deltascape it was widely better than all the Casters yet still the least played job. Once again, my point hasn't been damage related but this idea MCH will suddenly become popular when it's never occurred before.

Notice into Sigmascape, Summoner was what overtook Machinist. Summoner was fixed up a bit and given a gigantic damage upgrade, getting close to being the highest damaging job in the game. As well, whenever Machinist buffs are brought up, it's casters who need to be considered because they're the ones MCH would compete against--not BRD. Which brings us back to...Machinist cannot be buffed, but its competitor apparently cannot be nerfed.

I never said BRD couldn't be nerfed. Don't put words in my mouth. I said, for the third time, it won't abruptly make MCH popular with its current gameplay. I only tagged into this discussion on that premise. Regardless, the issue with BRD is how it scales, which will not be touched until 5.0. Hence why I said earlier they aren't going to just slap a 5% nerf on BRD for six months then readjust everything all over again six months later.

Not every Bard and Machinist has a dragoon. Bard and Machinist easily bring their fair share without Dragoon.

As I stated, the amount of tools they bring only makes sense in the scenario where Dragoon isn't there. Claiming that somehow Bard is deadweight without Dragoon is false. The -dragoon- is dead weight without the Bard, because Ninja, Monk, and Samurai are all better when no Ranged role is in the party.

You've moved the goal post again.

I said if you apply this hypothetical 5% you suggested, BRD is a dead weight job without a DRG. Their rDPS wouldn't make up the enormous loss overall. This isn't the case currently, though why you would run without a DRG on either physical range is anyone's guess. Regardless it's also likely why we won't see any significant changes because I have ever belief Piercing dies come 5.0 and that is how they'll settle MCH/BRD. MCH will be better compensated whereas BRD won't. But this won't happen mid tier.

[Kabooa]

You've moved the goal post again.

I said if you apply this hypothetical 5% you suggested, BRD is a dead weight job without a DRG. Their rDPS wouldn't make up the enormous loss overall. This isn't the case currently, though why you would run without a DRG on either physical range is anyone's guess. Regardless it's also likely why we won't see any significant changes because I have ever belief Piercing dies come 5.0 and that is how they'll settle MCH/BRD. MCH will be better compensated whereas BRD won't. But this won't happen mid tier.

Lol.

Okay.

Using 95th percentile data (As this represents fairly optimized play without perfect conditions / RNG), Bards are sitting at 7200 and Machinist at 7300 on Chaos (Chosen arbitrarily - Chaos has minimal downtime for range jobs, limited transition, single target, ease of access for Parse runs)

Cherry picking a comp of Paladin, Warrior, Scholar, Astro, Ninja, Dragoon, Summoner and filling in the last spot with either Bard or Machinist.

That's 5.2, 5.5, 3.8, 3.8, 7.2, 7.2, 7.7, and then another 7.2 or 7.3.

Grand Total Raid DPS
Bard: 47.6k
Mach: 47.7k

Docking bard by 5% (360)
Bard: 47.2k
Mach: 47.7k

Adding Samurai instead of Dragoon (7.9k vs 7.2)
Bard: 47.9k
Mach: 48.4k

Removing Piercing and Litany: Machinist is around 7%. Bard, due to double dipping crits is probably around 8%. Mach (-600), Bard ( -550)
Bard: 47.35k
Mach: 47.8k

Percentage difference (Bard now with Dragoon vs Bard Nerf without Dragoon)

Edit: Adjusting total RDPS down for Litany using a 7200 Dragoon (450 average. Assuming equal distribution based on damage, then giving bard a bit more favor due to double dipping, -380 from BNDrg)

BDrag: 47.6k
BNDrg: 46.95k

Difference: 1.4%

Edit: Machinist for comaprison

MDrag: 47.7k
MNDrg: 47.3k

Difference: .9%

Difference between BNDrg and MNDrg: .74%

[whiskeybravo]

Grand Total Raid DPS
Bard: 47.6k
Mach: 47.7k

What are we arguing about again?

[Kabooa]

What are we arguing about again?

This entire block is addressing "Nerfed bard is deadweight without dragoon".

Which is patently not true.

Bonus Round: Replacing Bard/Mach with something else.

Previous decided Nerfed-No-Drag Raid Total
Bard: 46.95k
Mach: 47.3k

First we have to remove the value Machinist and Bard bring to the Raid. Using comparable raid logs and estimating their contribution (Bard ~2%, Mach 1.25%) we have

Bard: ~900
Mach: ~591

Total
Bard: 46.05k
Mach: 46.7k

Now, lets replace them both with the current abuser: Black Mage.

Our previous blurb up there established Nerf-No-Drag Bard and No-Drag Mach to be
Bard: 6290
Mach: 6700

An equivalent Black Mage is 8,070, so we'll round up to 8100.
Bard: +1810
Mach: +1400

Adjusting said Black Mage down due to no litany (Due to Sam replacement: - ~70) and No -
Bard Buffs: 7870
Machinist Buffs: 7930

BlamRepBard: 47.63k
BlameRepMach: 48k

Percentage difference - Bard

Bard: 46.95k
Blam: 47.6k

1.4%

Percentage difference - Mach

Mach: 47.3k
Blam: 48k

1.5%

[Bourne_Endeavor]

This entire block is addressing "Nerfed bard is deadweight without dragoon".

Which is patently not true.

Your estimations are off. Fortunately, we have a site that calculates rDPS, albeit it isn't perfect but it does the job. http://www.xivrdps.com/encounters/nLjybwfQktHXadTV/13

Litany is a wash in terms of pure damage, though it does impact BRD more noticeably due to the proc nature of their job. For the sake of argument's, we'll put that aside and call it a wash. Likewise, we'll half Piercing, subtract 5% from BRD's pDPS and remove Dragon Sight.

MCH: 6,780
BRD: 6,481

That is a substantial difference, especially as BRD would drop even lower due to the aforementioned lowered chance of procs. For comparison sake, SMN's rDPS hovers just shy of 8k. The gap between them and a nerfed, DRG-less BRD is nearly 1,500 rDPS. I'll grant you dead weight may be a bit too strong a term if only because I didn't include MCH. They'd both be surviving on Refresh. Basically, DRG just became even more comfy in its spot. Which is a moot point. It is somewhat ironic though because the whole fighting for one spot argument is equally true on the melee side. NIN/MNK/SAM fight while DRG slots in. And because Trick Attack is Trick Attack, well, it's not much competition for NIN.

Simply put, a lot of balancing issues need to be addressed. Which isn't going to happen pre-expansion.

[Dualgunner]

It does when you aren't nerfing BRD to a point people wouldn't take it. In fact, BLM is a perfect example of this. Its damage is monstrous, and it's essentially considered equal to SMN yet its popularity didn't move much this tier. Why? It's never been a popular job at any stage due to its gameplay.

And yet, Black Mages no longer feel like an absolute detriment to their party--which is the point of buffs and nerfs.

MCH falls in the same category. A 5% nerf to BRD tomorrow isn't going to put much of a dent in any statistic because a huge issue with MCH is its gameplay.

But Machinists won't feel like as much of a detriment to their party--are we seeing a theme yet?--and feel more comfortable within their own job in the static.

I don't disagree with BRD getting brought down a little—never have this entire time—just with the notion MCH's popularity will suddenly jump start over it when at no point in two expansions has MCH ever been popular.

Just because it's not going to be a binary "MCH is now the prettiest girl in school" doesn't mean nothing should be done about the rock and a hard place it's in.

You just said lots of people dislike SMN yet its currently fourth place amongst the DPS because of meta. Why didn't this apply to MCH? During Deltascape it was widely better than all the Casters yet still the least played job.

You'll have to forgive me, but evidence to this claim? I never looked at the upload numbers for Delta when it was active, however I still have to hold a healthy amount of skepticism. I know during Sigma it became true, but during Sigma is when Summoner took over.

Once again, my point hasn't been damage related but this idea MCH will suddenly become popular when it's never occurred before.

You're honestly kind of all over the place without a clear point. MCH's popularity is a symptom of it being a badly designed job, but BRD's overpopularity is a symptom of a lot of things, ranging from its simplified design, compatibility with every group type, be that giving everyone else buffs, or everyone else's buffs meaning so much more for Bard because of how its crit scaling and burst works.

I never said BRD couldn't be nerfed. Don't put words in my mouth.

I never said that you did. Don't put words in my mouth. That is, however, the general argument against this thread's proposal, so you'll have to forgive me addressing it in the grander scheme of things.

I said, for the third time, it won't abruptly make MCH popular with its current gameplay. I only tagged into this discussion on that premise.

The rising tide floats all boats. Bard dropping from 21% of all DPS uploads means everybody else's participation rates rise, including Machinist.

Regardless, the issue with BRD is how it scales, which will not be touched until 5.0. Hence why I said earlier they aren't going to just slap a 5% nerf on BRD for six months then readjust everything all over again six months later.

They've done weirder for balance before.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You'll have to forgive me, but evidence to this claim? I never looked at the upload numbers for Delta when it was active, however I still have to hold a healthy amount of skepticism. I know during Sigma it became true, but during Sigma is when Summoner took over.

Sadly, FFlogs only tracks two weeks. So Deltascape wouldn't be an accurate representation anymore. Even using those numbers though, MCH only barely pulled ahead of BLM, which was in arguably the worst state its ever been in at that point.

You're honestly kind of all over the place without a clear point. MCH's popularity is a symptom of it being a badly designed job, but BRD's overpopularity is a symptom of a lot of things, ranging from its simplified design, compatibility with every group type, be that giving everyone else buffs, or everyone else's buffs meaning so much more for Bard because of how its crit scaling and burst works.

The point is BRD has always been exceedingly popular whereas MCH has never been popular. The only time BRD showed a dip is throughout Heavensward primarily because of cast times. I'll acknowledge its speculative hence why I said I sincerely doubt a nerf of any kind will change the landscape. That will only occur with an overhaul. Look at DRK. It's numbers barely budged despite the buffs it received before Alphascape. People don't like the DA spam. So they just aren't playing it.

They've done weirder for balance before.

Feel free to correct if I'm wrong, but they have never nerfed a job mid-tier by 5% since Heavensward. It has always been buffs or very negligible nerfs. Expecting them to change that stance less than a year before 5.0 is setting yourself up for disappointment.