#NerfBRD

[Dualgunner]

You know very well that arbitarily nerfing BRD’s personal damage isn’t going to suddenly have everyone flocking to MCH, Dual. Especially in its current iteration. Honestly, this comment isn’t constructive; it’s whiny.

And yet, raising Machinist to any level where it can compete with current BRD will only make casters go extinct. Call it whiny if you want, I'm just summing up what the arguments have been so far.

[Kabooa]

Currently, there are 43,744 Bards. Thus, you're insinuating a 5% nerf to Bard would make Machinist the second most popular range job in the game. That just isn't going to happen. Even when it was decidedly better than Bard in Heavensward, people simply weren't as keen to play it. Machinist just isn't popular. It never has been even when it was meta.

It is technically already the second most popular ranged job in the game.

My argument is that Bard doing the same if not greater damage than Machinist violates the notion that greater support capability means less personal performance potential.

This argument applies equally to Mages, to Melee DPS, to Tanks, and to Healers.

Why is Bard suddenly special in this regard?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

And yet, raising Machinist to any level where it can compete with current BRD will only make casters go extinct. Call it whiny if you want, I'm just summing up what the arguments have been so far.

We spoke about this before. The solution there is Refresh vs. Mana Shift. You can nerf BRD all you want, it won't make MCH competitive with it unless we've switched them. In fact, here's a hypothetical I could actually see happening.

- Piercing removed
- Heavy Thrust increased from 10% to 15%
- Hotshot increased from 8% to 12%
- Add 10-20 potency somewhere on Bard

In this scenario, Bard is the least compensated for piercing's removal. Does this suddenly make Machinist more popular? I sincerely doubt it.

It is technically already the second most popular ranged job in the game.

My argument is that Bard doing the same if not greater damage than Machinist violates the notion that greater support capability means less personal performance potential.

This argument applies equally to Mages, to Melee DPS, to Tanks, and to Healers.

Why is Bard suddenly special in this regard?

Now you're being obtuse. Your insinuation puts Machinist as the second popular range job, period—beating Summoner in popularity. No one's arguing Machinist shouldn't do more damage. The argument is nerfing Bard won't abruptly make it more popularity, which is what you said. And certainly not to a 1:2.5 ratio. Because of a 5% nerf to Bard, Machinist suddenly has three times the population? That's absurd.

[Dualgunner]

We spoke about this before. The solution there is Refresh vs. Mana Shift. You can nerf BRD all you want, it won't make MCH competitive with it unless we've switched them. In fact, here's a hypothetical I could actually see happening.

We also spoke about an idea where it ends up all five ranged jobs are fighting for both slots, as opposed to Bard having one slot, and the other four fighting for the leftovers. We can, and should nerf Bard, not just because of Machinist, but because something should be a red flag when Bard is in every conceivable meta assortment. Grimoire-M's suggestion of getting rid of Mana Shift and Refresh and replacing it with a magic variant of Goad, I think, would work best in that circumstance.

In this scenario, Bard is the least compensated for piercing's removal. Does this suddenly make Machinist more popular? I sincerely doubt it.

If Bard weren't the bread and butter of every static, Machinist would definitely be more popular. As is, Machinists who aren't being asked to switch to Bard, because Bard is better than Machinist in every way that matters, are already switching to Bard because their favorite job is sandwiched between the Casters, whom it can't be too much better than or it would enforce MCH/BRD again and BRD, whom is one of the best jobs in the game.

EDIT:

It's also worth noting that BRD isn't just more popular than MCH--it's the most popular job of the tier by a large factor (in the last two weeks):
BRD is 21%
DRG is 19%
NIN is 14.7%
SMN is 11.4%
RDM is 9.4%
SAM is 9.2%
BLM is 5.8%
MNK is 5.5%
MCH is 3.5%

[Bourne_Endeavor]

We also spoke about an idea where it ends up all five ranged jobs are fighting for both slots, as opposed to Bard having one slot, and the other four fighting for the leftovers. We can, and should nerf Bard, not just because of Machinist, but because something should be a red flag when Bard is in every conceivable meta assortment. Grimoire-M's suggestion of getting rid of Mana Shift and Refresh and replacing it with a magic variant of Goad, I think, would work best in that circumstance.

Yes. And you accomplish that by addressing why Physical Range are always valued over Casters. Nerfing BRD is irrelevant in that discussion. I'm not even against the idea of a small DPS loss hence my speculation BRD won't get the full 5% back when Piercing, hopefully, dies. But it isn't going to change the raid scene due to MCH's current gameplay being almost universally hated. You balance all five jobs by looking at what separates them. And that is currently how much better Refresh is than Mana Shift. If that isn't addressed, nerfing BRD by 1-2-5% won't make a lick of difference.

If Bard weren't the bread and butter of every static, Machinist would definitely be more popular. As is, Machinists who aren't being asked to switch to Bard, because Bard is better than Machinist in every way that matters, are already switching to Bard because their favorite job is sandwiched between the Casters, whom it can't be too much better than or it would enforce MCH/BRD again and BRD, whom is one of the best jobs in the game.

Then why did BRD command a similar lead in Deltascape? Or back in Heavensward, where MCH was flat out considered better at various points? MCH has been dead last since its release. I also never said MCH wouldn't be more popular, I said it's popularity would abruptly soar—especially not to the estimations put forth. Even in its heyday, MCH just hasn't been liked. The only way this gets rectified is if they overhaul the job come 5.0. Which should happen. People are demanding it now though. And while it would be nice, we know that won't be in the case.

[Dualgunner]

Yes. And you accomplish that by addressing why Physical Range are always valued over Casters. Nerfing BRD is irrelevant in that discussion.

Agreed. And as I already said, Grimoire-M's idea seems to fit that the best: ranged will have Goad and Mana Goad, Melee will have Goad, and Casters will have Mana Goad; this would fix a lot on its own.

I'm not even against the idea of a small DPS loss hence my speculation BRD won't get the full 5% back when Piercing, hopefully, dies.

Glad we agree.

But it isn't going to change the raid scene due to MCH's current gameplay being almost universally hated.

It will at least change the climate to not be 1/5DPS are Bards.

You balance all five jobs by looking at what separates them. And that is currently how much better Refresh is than Mana Shift. If that isn't addressed, nerfing BRD by 1-2-5% won't make a lick of difference.

How much better refresh is than mana shift, in addition to the ease one can weave through mechanics when uptime isn't even close to an issue where casters and melee have to measure where and when they stand to get the best uptime on the boss, absolutely bonkers burst potential, passive 2% crit buff on the whole party and increased DHit from B. Voice and increased flat damage from Foe's, a 30 second long mitigation tool that requires no target.

Then why did BRD command a similar lead in Deltascape?

Because Bard has been that good through the whole expansion. Bard's commanded a lead over every other DPS this whole expansion, I'd wager. Or are you insinuating that Bard wasn't the bread and butter back in Deltascape?

Or back in Heavensward, where MCH was flat out considered better at various points? MCH has been dead last since its release. I also never said MCH wouldn't be more popular, I said it's popularity would abruptly soar—especially not to the estimations put forth.

Its popularity wouldn't soar, you're right. But Bard right now is so good that 1 in every 5 dps uploads, of every DPS job, is a Bard. Maybe Bard doesn't need to be so good and powerful that it is the static-maker.

[Kabooa]

Now you're being obtuse. Your insinuation puts Machinist as the second popular range job, period—beating Summoner in popularity. No one's arguing Machinist shouldn't do more damage. The argument is nerfing Bard won't abruptly make it more popularity, which is what you said. And certainly not to a 1:2.5 ratio. Because of a 5% nerf to Bard, Machinist suddenly has three times the population? That's absurd.

That's a Caster :P

And it's unfair to paint points I make to two separate people as directed towards you alone.

So, we'll consolidate it.

One assertion is that Bard having 5% less damage flat out makes it deadweight. I pointed out that according to the data we have, at the time when Bard -was- 5% behind Machinist, the ratio was much more favorable. People still played Bard more, but there were also more Machinists.

The other is that damage alone doesn't make the Machinist more popular. Which is opinion. We can only extrapolate from data, -however- when Machinist was ahead of Bard on damage, more people played Machinist.

These two statements are not in opposition with each other.

When a job is considered harder to play, but performs less than another job, then it's hard to justify playing it when performance matters. When a job brings less tools than another, but doesn't deal an appreciable amount of damage more, then it's hard to justify playing it when performance matters. It comes down to whether or not jobs are equitable to one another, especially when they fall into the same role.

At this time, that equity does not exist between Bard and Machinist.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

It will at least change the climate to not be 1/5DPS are Bards.

Except... it wouldn't be. BRD's popularity is not only in how good the game is, but how it's arguably the best designed job in the expansion. People like it's gameplay, not simply it's damage. Nerfing BRD won't change the landscape right now whatsoever because people dislike MCH's gameplay by and large. Will you see more MCHs? Sure, but the numbers aren't going to swing from 43k BRD to half that. Nor will MCH suddenly balloon upwards. At best, you'll see a handful more MCHs. And even that is being generous given how universally disliked the Stormblood iteration has been. A nerfed BRD will still be overwhelmingly preferred for its gameplay.

Because Bard has been that good through the whole expansion. Bard's commanded a lead over every other DPS this whole expansion, I'd wager. Or are you insinuating that Bard wasn't the bread and butter back in Deltascape?

My point was MCH was meta at varying points this expansion; both throughout Deltascape and into early Sigma. Dismantle was also considered better for UcoB. Despite its highly competitive status, people still wouldn't play it. MCH spent all of Deltascape dead last in terms of popularity. Hence why nerfing BRD, which I don't inherently disagree with, won't change the landscape.

And it's unfair to paint points I make to two separate people as directed towards you alone.

You were the one who made the silly assertion nerfing BRD would bolster MCH from 1:8 ratio to 1:2.5. Hence my response, which I covered above, thus I don't need to reiterate it again.

One assertion is that Bard having 5% less damage flat out makes it deadweight. I pointed out that according to the data we have, at the time when Bard -was- 5% behind Machinist, the ratio was much more favorable. People still played Bard more, but there were also more Machinists.

I said dead weight without a DRG. Don't omit part of my statement when making your argument. Furthermore, your argument is self defeating. BRD was still overwhelmingly popular in Deltascape—significantly more so than MCH. The argument between us has never been MCH shouldn't do more damage, but merely you're assertion nerfing BRD would abruptly make MCH go from sub 8k to well beyond double when it's been the least popular job since Heavensward.

[giwaman]

I totally agree, either they nerf bard or buff mch hypercharge and support skills to balance and bring back the real meta!.

[giwaman]

I'm not sure I quite understand. Is the argument that BRD should be nerfed because there's actually something wrong with BRD... or is it just so that MCH fans can feel more validated in playing a job that's not fun?

Currently mch is being left out and overshadowed in meta by casters/brd, because it has less to contribute and people would rather have overpowered casters with raise than a gun wielding clunky class.
Mch deserves better.