#NerfBRD

[Bourne_Endeavor]

And yet, raising Machinist to any level where it can compete with current BRD will only make casters go extinct. Call it whiny if you want, I'm just summing up what the arguments have been so far.

We spoke about this before. The solution there is Refresh vs. Mana Shift. You can nerf BRD all you want, it won't make MCH competitive with it unless we've switched them. In fact, here's a hypothetical I could actually see happening.

- Piercing removed
- Heavy Thrust increased from 10% to 15%
- Hotshot increased from 8% to 12%
- Add 10-20 potency somewhere on Bard

In this scenario, Bard is the least compensated for piercing's removal. Does this suddenly make Machinist more popular? I sincerely doubt it.

It is technically already the second most popular ranged job in the game.

My argument is that Bard doing the same if not greater damage than Machinist violates the notion that greater support capability means less personal performance potential.

This argument applies equally to Mages, to Melee DPS, to Tanks, and to Healers.

Why is Bard suddenly special in this regard?

Now you're being obtuse. Your insinuation puts Machinist as the second popular range job, period—beating Summoner in popularity. No one's arguing Machinist shouldn't do more damage. The argument is nerfing Bard won't abruptly make it more popularity, which is what you said. And certainly not to a 1:2.5 ratio. Because of a 5% nerf to Bard, Machinist suddenly has three times the population? That's absurd.

[Dualgunner]

We spoke about this before. The solution there is Refresh vs. Mana Shift. You can nerf BRD all you want, it won't make MCH competitive with it unless we've switched them. In fact, here's a hypothetical I could actually see happening.

We also spoke about an idea where it ends up all five ranged jobs are fighting for both slots, as opposed to Bard having one slot, and the other four fighting for the leftovers. We can, and should nerf Bard, not just because of Machinist, but because something should be a red flag when Bard is in every conceivable meta assortment. Grimoire-M's suggestion of getting rid of Mana Shift and Refresh and replacing it with a magic variant of Goad, I think, would work best in that circumstance.

In this scenario, Bard is the least compensated for piercing's removal. Does this suddenly make Machinist more popular? I sincerely doubt it.

If Bard weren't the bread and butter of every static, Machinist would definitely be more popular. As is, Machinists who aren't being asked to switch to Bard, because Bard is better than Machinist in every way that matters, are already switching to Bard because their favorite job is sandwiched between the Casters, whom it can't be too much better than or it would enforce MCH/BRD again and BRD, whom is one of the best jobs in the game.

EDIT:

It's also worth noting that BRD isn't just more popular than MCH--it's the most popular job of the tier by a large factor (in the last two weeks):
BRD is 21%
DRG is 19%
NIN is 14.7%
SMN is 11.4%
RDM is 9.4%
SAM is 9.2%
BLM is 5.8%
MNK is 5.5%
MCH is 3.5%

[Bourne_Endeavor]

We also spoke about an idea where it ends up all five ranged jobs are fighting for both slots, as opposed to Bard having one slot, and the other four fighting for the leftovers. We can, and should nerf Bard, not just because of Machinist, but because something should be a red flag when Bard is in every conceivable meta assortment. Grimoire-M's suggestion of getting rid of Mana Shift and Refresh and replacing it with a magic variant of Goad, I think, would work best in that circumstance.

Yes. And you accomplish that by addressing why Physical Range are always valued over Casters. Nerfing BRD is irrelevant in that discussion. I'm not even against the idea of a small DPS loss hence my speculation BRD won't get the full 5% back when Piercing, hopefully, dies. But it isn't going to change the raid scene due to MCH's current gameplay being almost universally hated. You balance all five jobs by looking at what separates them. And that is currently how much better Refresh is than Mana Shift. If that isn't addressed, nerfing BRD by 1-2-5% won't make a lick of difference.

If Bard weren't the bread and butter of every static, Machinist would definitely be more popular. As is, Machinists who aren't being asked to switch to Bard, because Bard is better than Machinist in every way that matters, are already switching to Bard because their favorite job is sandwiched between the Casters, whom it can't be too much better than or it would enforce MCH/BRD again and BRD, whom is one of the best jobs in the game.

Then why did BRD command a similar lead in Deltascape? Or back in Heavensward, where MCH was flat out considered better at various points? MCH has been dead last since its release. I also never said MCH wouldn't be more popular, I said it's popularity would abruptly soar—especially not to the estimations put forth. Even in its heyday, MCH just hasn't been liked. The only way this gets rectified is if they overhaul the job come 5.0. Which should happen. People are demanding it now though. And while it would be nice, we know that won't be in the case.

[Dualgunner]

Yes. And you accomplish that by addressing why Physical Range are always valued over Casters. Nerfing BRD is irrelevant in that discussion.

Agreed. And as I already said, Grimoire-M's idea seems to fit that the best: ranged will have Goad and Mana Goad, Melee will have Goad, and Casters will have Mana Goad; this would fix a lot on its own.

I'm not even against the idea of a small DPS loss hence my speculation BRD won't get the full 5% back when Piercing, hopefully, dies.

Glad we agree.

But it isn't going to change the raid scene due to MCH's current gameplay being almost universally hated.

It will at least change the climate to not be 1/5DPS are Bards.

You balance all five jobs by looking at what separates them. And that is currently how much better Refresh is than Mana Shift. If that isn't addressed, nerfing BRD by 1-2-5% won't make a lick of difference.

How much better refresh is than mana shift, in addition to the ease one can weave through mechanics when uptime isn't even close to an issue where casters and melee have to measure where and when they stand to get the best uptime on the boss, absolutely bonkers burst potential, passive 2% crit buff on the whole party and increased DHit from B. Voice and increased flat damage from Foe's, a 30 second long mitigation tool that requires no target.

Then why did BRD command a similar lead in Deltascape?

Because Bard has been that good through the whole expansion. Bard's commanded a lead over every other DPS this whole expansion, I'd wager. Or are you insinuating that Bard wasn't the bread and butter back in Deltascape?

Or back in Heavensward, where MCH was flat out considered better at various points? MCH has been dead last since its release. I also never said MCH wouldn't be more popular, I said it's popularity would abruptly soar—especially not to the estimations put forth.

Its popularity wouldn't soar, you're right. But Bard right now is so good that 1 in every 5 dps uploads, of every DPS job, is a Bard. Maybe Bard doesn't need to be so good and powerful that it is the static-maker.

[Kabooa]

Now you're being obtuse. Your insinuation puts Machinist as the second popular range job, period—beating Summoner in popularity. No one's arguing Machinist shouldn't do more damage. The argument is nerfing Bard won't abruptly make it more popularity, which is what you said. And certainly not to a 1:2.5 ratio. Because of a 5% nerf to Bard, Machinist suddenly has three times the population? That's absurd.

That's a Caster :P

And it's unfair to paint points I make to two separate people as directed towards you alone.

So, we'll consolidate it.

One assertion is that Bard having 5% less damage flat out makes it deadweight. I pointed out that according to the data we have, at the time when Bard -was- 5% behind Machinist, the ratio was much more favorable. People still played Bard more, but there were also more Machinists.

The other is that damage alone doesn't make the Machinist more popular. Which is opinion. We can only extrapolate from data, -however- when Machinist was ahead of Bard on damage, more people played Machinist.

These two statements are not in opposition with each other.

When a job is considered harder to play, but performs less than another job, then it's hard to justify playing it when performance matters. When a job brings less tools than another, but doesn't deal an appreciable amount of damage more, then it's hard to justify playing it when performance matters. It comes down to whether or not jobs are equitable to one another, especially when they fall into the same role.

At this time, that equity does not exist between Bard and Machinist.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

It will at least change the climate to not be 1/5DPS are Bards.

Except... it wouldn't be. BRD's popularity is not only in how good the game is, but how it's arguably the best designed job in the expansion. People like it's gameplay, not simply it's damage. Nerfing BRD won't change the landscape right now whatsoever because people dislike MCH's gameplay by and large. Will you see more MCHs? Sure, but the numbers aren't going to swing from 43k BRD to half that. Nor will MCH suddenly balloon upwards. At best, you'll see a handful more MCHs. And even that is being generous given how universally disliked the Stormblood iteration has been. A nerfed BRD will still be overwhelmingly preferred for its gameplay.

Because Bard has been that good through the whole expansion. Bard's commanded a lead over every other DPS this whole expansion, I'd wager. Or are you insinuating that Bard wasn't the bread and butter back in Deltascape?

My point was MCH was meta at varying points this expansion; both throughout Deltascape and into early Sigma. Dismantle was also considered better for UcoB. Despite its highly competitive status, people still wouldn't play it. MCH spent all of Deltascape dead last in terms of popularity. Hence why nerfing BRD, which I don't inherently disagree with, won't change the landscape.

And it's unfair to paint points I make to two separate people as directed towards you alone.

You were the one who made the silly assertion nerfing BRD would bolster MCH from 1:8 ratio to 1:2.5. Hence my response, which I covered above, thus I don't need to reiterate it again.

One assertion is that Bard having 5% less damage flat out makes it deadweight. I pointed out that according to the data we have, at the time when Bard -was- 5% behind Machinist, the ratio was much more favorable. People still played Bard more, but there were also more Machinists.

I said dead weight without a DRG. Don't omit part of my statement when making your argument. Furthermore, your argument is self defeating. BRD was still overwhelmingly popular in Deltascape—significantly more so than MCH. The argument between us has never been MCH shouldn't do more damage, but merely you're assertion nerfing BRD would abruptly make MCH go from sub 8k to well beyond double when it's been the least popular job since Heavensward.

[Dualgunner]

Except... it wouldn't be. BRD's popularity is not only in how good the game is, but how it's arguably the best designed job in the expansion. People like it's gameplay, not simply it's damage.

People liking its gameplay wouldn't mean much if it wasn't also one of the best jobs to have in your team. People liked RDM, but once it became more cemented that the job was really only good for progression, it fell off. People liked SAM and BLM, but again, as more and more people realized that they didn't bring the adequate damage to compensate for the fact they're not team players.

Conversely, lots of people dislike SMN. They like the idea of being a SMN well enough, but they hate how SMN has been implemented in this game, and there are always criticisms of its gameplay whether that be its awkward three-segment-rotation, bahamut not being responsive enough, and egis being underwhelming. In my experience, it's about as clunky as MCH. Yet, because it brings the damage, it's the most played caster, even after nerfs blowing RDM and BLM out of the water and is the fourth most played job this tier, right behind the Meta Three.

Nerfing BRD won't change the landscape right now whatsoever because people dislike MCH's gameplay by and large. Will you see more MCHs? Sure, but the numbers aren't going to swing from 43k BRD to half that. Nor will MCH suddenly balloon upwards. At best, you'll see a handful more MCHs. And even that is being generous given how universally disliked the Stormblood iteration has been. A nerfed BRD will still be overwhelmingly preferred for its gameplay.

At best you'll see a handful more MCHs...and a lot of people who prefer playing MCH will be able to justify to themselves their desire to play their favorite job to their party, instead of quietly swapping to BRD themselves because of how much better it is for its own slot.

This is like saying SMN shouldn't have seen a slight nerf at the end of Sigma because it didn't immediately make BLM or RDM the most preferred jobs. No, BLM and RDM aren't suddenly as or more popular than SMN, but it's a damn sight easier to justify being a RDM now because I'm not dragging rDPS down by a huge margin when playing my preferred job. Even then, it was only a slight nerf to SMN, and a buff to both RDM and BLM--something the likes of which could be done for MCH in relation to BRD.

My point was MCH was meta at varying points this expansion; both throughout Deltascape and into early Sigma. Dismantle was also considered better for UcoB. Despite its highly competitive status, people still wouldn't play it. MCH spent all of Deltascape dead last in terms of popularity. Hence why nerfing BRD, which I don't inherently disagree with, won't change the landscape.

It was meta because the casters were garbage through most of this expansion. What flavor of garbage did you want, the turret that needs the whole party to adjust to it and doesn't reward the party for strategies that do so (BLM)? A slightly less turret that did less damage than even BRD at certain places (RDM)? Or a jumbled mess of mechanics and spells that the devs kind of barfed up and hoped was good (SMN)? ...or perhaps, Machinist, who not only didn't need to be adjusted to, but was just as mobile as bard, but enhanced bard's burst potential and increased healer damage potential even more?

Notice into Sigmascape, Summoner was what overtook Machinist. Summoner was fixed up a bit and given a gigantic damage upgrade, getting close to being the highest damaging job in the game. As well, whenever Machinist buffs are brought up, it's casters who need to be considered because they're the ones MCH would compete against--not BRD. Which brings us back to...Machinist cannot be buffed, but its competitor apparently cannot be nerfed.

Currently mch is being left out and overshadowed in meta by casters/brd, because it has less to contribute and people would rather have overpowered casters with raise than a gun wielding clunky class.
Mch deserves better.

I wouldn't say it's the casters that are OP in this equation. When MCH has to fight for a completely separate spot in the team than BRD, despite the intent being that it competed with BRD, I don't think it's the jobs that traditionally fight for the fourth spot that are to blame.

[Kabooa]

I said dead weight without a DRG. Don't omit part of my statement when making your argument. Furthermore, your argument is self defeating. BRD was still overwhelmingly popular in Deltascape—significantly more so than MCH. The argument between us has never been MCH shouldn't do more damage, but merely you're assertion nerfing BRD would abruptly make MCH go from sub 8k to well beyond double when it's been the least popular job since Heavensward.

Not every Bard and Machinist has a dragoon. Bard and Machinist easily bring their fair share without Dragoon.

As I stated, the amount of tools they bring only makes sense in the scenario where Dragoon isn't there. Claiming that somehow Bard is deadweight without Dragoon is false. The -dragoon- is dead weight without the Bard, because Ninja, Monk, and Samurai are all better when no Ranged role is in the party.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

People liking its gameplay wouldn't mean much if it wasn't also one of the best jobs to have in your team. People liked RDM, but once it became more cemented that the job was really only good for progression, it fell off. People liked SAM and BLM, but again, as more and more people realized that they didn't bring the adequate damage to compensate for the fact they're not team players.

It does when you aren't nerfing BRD to a point people wouldn't take it. In fact, BLM is a perfect example of this. Its damage is monstrous, and it's essentially considered equal to SMN yet its popularity didn't move much this tier. Why? It's never been a popular job at any stage due to its gameplay. MCH falls in the same category. A 5% nerf to BRD tomorrow isn't going to put much of a dent in any statistic because a huge issue with MCH is its gameplay. I don't disagree with BRD getting brought down a little—never have this entire time—just with the notion MCH's popularity will suddenly jump start over it when at no point in two expansions has MCH ever been popular.

It was meta because the casters were garbage through most of this expansion. What flavor of garbage did you want, the turret that needs the whole party to adjust to it and doesn't reward the party for strategies that do so (BLM)? A slightly less turret that did less damage than even BRD at certain places (RDM)? Or a jumbled mess of mechanics and spells that the devs kind of barfed up and hoped was good (SMN)? ...or perhaps, Machinist, who not only didn't need to be adjusted to, but was just as mobile as bard, but enhanced bard's burst potential and increased healer damage potential even more?

You just said lots of people dislike SMN yet its currently fourth place amongst the DPS because of meta. Why didn't this apply to MCH? During Deltascape it was widely better than all the Casters yet still the least played job. Once again, my point hasn't been damage related but this idea MCH will suddenly become popular when it's never occurred before.

Notice into Sigmascape, Summoner was what overtook Machinist. Summoner was fixed up a bit and given a gigantic damage upgrade, getting close to being the highest damaging job in the game. As well, whenever Machinist buffs are brought up, it's casters who need to be considered because they're the ones MCH would compete against--not BRD. Which brings us back to...Machinist cannot be buffed, but its competitor apparently cannot be nerfed.

I never said BRD couldn't be nerfed. Don't put words in my mouth. I said, for the third time, it won't abruptly make MCH popular with its current gameplay. I only tagged into this discussion on that premise. Regardless, the issue with BRD is how it scales, which will not be touched until 5.0. Hence why I said earlier they aren't going to just slap a 5% nerf on BRD for six months then readjust everything all over again six months later.

Not every Bard and Machinist has a dragoon. Bard and Machinist easily bring their fair share without Dragoon.

As I stated, the amount of tools they bring only makes sense in the scenario where Dragoon isn't there. Claiming that somehow Bard is deadweight without Dragoon is false. The -dragoon- is dead weight without the Bard, because Ninja, Monk, and Samurai are all better when no Ranged role is in the party.

You've moved the goal post again.

I said if you apply this hypothetical 5% you suggested, BRD is a dead weight job without a DRG. Their rDPS wouldn't make up the enormous loss overall. This isn't the case currently, though why you would run without a DRG on either physical range is anyone's guess. Regardless it's also likely why we won't see any significant changes because I have ever belief Piercing dies come 5.0 and that is how they'll settle MCH/BRD. MCH will be better compensated whereas BRD won't. But this won't happen mid tier.

[Kabooa]

You've moved the goal post again.

I said if you apply this hypothetical 5% you suggested, BRD is a dead weight job without a DRG. Their rDPS wouldn't make up the enormous loss overall. This isn't the case currently, though why you would run without a DRG on either physical range is anyone's guess. Regardless it's also likely why we won't see any significant changes because I have ever belief Piercing dies come 5.0 and that is how they'll settle MCH/BRD. MCH will be better compensated whereas BRD won't. But this won't happen mid tier.

Lol.

Okay.

Using 95th percentile data (As this represents fairly optimized play without perfect conditions / RNG), Bards are sitting at 7200 and Machinist at 7300 on Chaos (Chosen arbitrarily - Chaos has minimal downtime for range jobs, limited transition, single target, ease of access for Parse runs)

Cherry picking a comp of Paladin, Warrior, Scholar, Astro, Ninja, Dragoon, Summoner and filling in the last spot with either Bard or Machinist.

That's 5.2, 5.5, 3.8, 3.8, 7.2, 7.2, 7.7, and then another 7.2 or 7.3.

Grand Total Raid DPS
Bard: 47.6k
Mach: 47.7k

Docking bard by 5% (360)
Bard: 47.2k
Mach: 47.7k

Adding Samurai instead of Dragoon (7.9k vs 7.2)
Bard: 47.9k
Mach: 48.4k

Removing Piercing and Litany: Machinist is around 7%. Bard, due to double dipping crits is probably around 8%. Mach (-600), Bard ( -550)
Bard: 47.35k
Mach: 47.8k

Percentage difference (Bard now with Dragoon vs Bard Nerf without Dragoon)

Edit: Adjusting total RDPS down for Litany using a 7200 Dragoon (450 average. Assuming equal distribution based on damage, then giving bard a bit more favor due to double dipping, -380 from BNDrg)

BDrag: 47.6k
BNDrg: 46.95k

Difference: 1.4%

Edit: Machinist for comaprison

MDrag: 47.7k
MNDrg: 47.3k

Difference: .9%

Difference between BNDrg and MNDrg: .74%