#NerfBRD

[Kabooa]

You do realize "meta" trickles down, yes? Monk is perfectly fine but you'll see groups take Ninja every time because "meta." A 6,700 rDPS Bard is dead weight when Machinist would be pulling in the mid 7k range.

And yet, in Deltascape Bard still outnumbered Machinist, despite Machinist having the damage advantage over Bard.

[HyoMinPark]

And yet, in Deltascape Bard still outnumbered Machinist, despite Machinist having the damage advantage over Bard.

Well, now you’re just establishing that even a nerf to BRD’s damage would still not make MCH more desireable. So what exactly have you fixed by nerfing BRD? Nothing. Nerfing BRD will not fix MCH’s inherent issues, nor will it suddenly make the job more popular.

[Miziliti]

They can nerf BRD all they want, and I still won't give a crap about MCH. BRD's popularity isn't just because it contributes more, it's because it contributes easily. Easier to play is also a part of BRD's popularity. MCH just aren't appealing to the majority.

For a long time since 4.0 dropped. People who want to like MCH voiced their opinions here. What they got was MCH players put a shaft in their mouth claiming the job is fine and go learn to play. Of course MCH won't be as popular as BRD due the fact its play style is a mess and MCH mains denies new ideas for change from the start. As long as MCH's play style stayed as it currently is, people who dislike the job will continue to not give a crap.

Suddenly, around patch 4.4 MCH mains cry all over the place because fflog showed MCH is not popular. If anything, MCH deserved all the attention it didn't receive on job balancing throughout SB.

[Kabooa]

Well, now you’re just establishing that even a nerf to BRD’s damage would still not make MCH more desireable. So what exactly have you fixed by nerfing BRD? Nothing. Nerfing BRD will not fix MCH’s inherent issues, nor will it suddenly make the job more popular.

One would consider 1:2.5 compared to 1:8 a more favorable position, but then, I suppose that's asking too much.

[HyoMinPark]

One would consider 1:2.5 compared to 1:8 a more favorable position, but then, I suppose that's asking too much.

Nerfing BRD’s damage isn’t going to almost quadruple the popularity of MCH. It’s never been as popular as BRD, and it’s doubtful that it ever will be. People like the BRD aesthetic—they like the bow-and-arrow look—and they enjoy its smooth, easy, and not punishing playstyle, especially after the Stormblood rework. Reworking MCH in 5.0 may see a slight rise in popularity, but the job has never been a high popularity job.

Can't buff MCH because it would screw with the Caster slot.

Can't nerf BRD.

So screw MCH I guess?

You know very well that arbitarily nerfing BRD’s personal damage isn’t going to suddenly have everyone flocking to MCH, Dual. Especially in its current iteration. Honestly, this comment isn’t constructive; it’s whiny.

[Dualgunner]

You know very well that arbitarily nerfing BRD’s personal damage isn’t going to suddenly have everyone flocking to MCH, Dual. Especially in its current iteration. Honestly, this comment isn’t constructive; it’s whiny.

And yet, raising Machinist to any level where it can compete with current BRD will only make casters go extinct. Call it whiny if you want, I'm just summing up what the arguments have been so far.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

And yet, raising Machinist to any level where it can compete with current BRD will only make casters go extinct. Call it whiny if you want, I'm just summing up what the arguments have been so far.

We spoke about this before. The solution there is Refresh vs. Mana Shift. You can nerf BRD all you want, it won't make MCH competitive with it unless we've switched them. In fact, here's a hypothetical I could actually see happening.

- Piercing removed
- Heavy Thrust increased from 10% to 15%
- Hotshot increased from 8% to 12%
- Add 10-20 potency somewhere on Bard

In this scenario, Bard is the least compensated for piercing's removal. Does this suddenly make Machinist more popular? I sincerely doubt it.

It is technically already the second most popular ranged job in the game.

My argument is that Bard doing the same if not greater damage than Machinist violates the notion that greater support capability means less personal performance potential.

This argument applies equally to Mages, to Melee DPS, to Tanks, and to Healers.

Why is Bard suddenly special in this regard?

Now you're being obtuse. Your insinuation puts Machinist as the second popular range job, period—beating Summoner in popularity. No one's arguing Machinist shouldn't do more damage. The argument is nerfing Bard won't abruptly make it more popularity, which is what you said. And certainly not to a 1:2.5 ratio. Because of a 5% nerf to Bard, Machinist suddenly has three times the population? That's absurd.

[Dualgunner]

We spoke about this before. The solution there is Refresh vs. Mana Shift. You can nerf BRD all you want, it won't make MCH competitive with it unless we've switched them. In fact, here's a hypothetical I could actually see happening.

We also spoke about an idea where it ends up all five ranged jobs are fighting for both slots, as opposed to Bard having one slot, and the other four fighting for the leftovers. We can, and should nerf Bard, not just because of Machinist, but because something should be a red flag when Bard is in every conceivable meta assortment. Grimoire-M's suggestion of getting rid of Mana Shift and Refresh and replacing it with a magic variant of Goad, I think, would work best in that circumstance.

In this scenario, Bard is the least compensated for piercing's removal. Does this suddenly make Machinist more popular? I sincerely doubt it.

If Bard weren't the bread and butter of every static, Machinist would definitely be more popular. As is, Machinists who aren't being asked to switch to Bard, because Bard is better than Machinist in every way that matters, are already switching to Bard because their favorite job is sandwiched between the Casters, whom it can't be too much better than or it would enforce MCH/BRD again and BRD, whom is one of the best jobs in the game.

EDIT:

It's also worth noting that BRD isn't just more popular than MCH--it's the most popular job of the tier by a large factor (in the last two weeks):
BRD is 21%
DRG is 19%
NIN is 14.7%
SMN is 11.4%
RDM is 9.4%
SAM is 9.2%
BLM is 5.8%
MNK is 5.5%
MCH is 3.5%

[Kabooa]

Now you're being obtuse. Your insinuation puts Machinist as the second popular range job, period—beating Summoner in popularity. No one's arguing Machinist shouldn't do more damage. The argument is nerfing Bard won't abruptly make it more popularity, which is what you said. And certainly not to a 1:2.5 ratio. Because of a 5% nerf to Bard, Machinist suddenly has three times the population? That's absurd.

That's a Caster :P

And it's unfair to paint points I make to two separate people as directed towards you alone.

So, we'll consolidate it.

One assertion is that Bard having 5% less damage flat out makes it deadweight. I pointed out that according to the data we have, at the time when Bard -was- 5% behind Machinist, the ratio was much more favorable. People still played Bard more, but there were also more Machinists.

The other is that damage alone doesn't make the Machinist more popular. Which is opinion. We can only extrapolate from data, -however- when Machinist was ahead of Bard on damage, more people played Machinist.

These two statements are not in opposition with each other.

When a job is considered harder to play, but performs less than another job, then it's hard to justify playing it when performance matters. When a job brings less tools than another, but doesn't deal an appreciable amount of damage more, then it's hard to justify playing it when performance matters. It comes down to whether or not jobs are equitable to one another, especially when they fall into the same role.

At this time, that equity does not exist between Bard and Machinist.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

One would consider 1:2.5 compared to 1:8 a more favorable position, but then, I suppose that's asking too much.

Currently, there are 43,744 Bards. Thus, you're insinuating a 5% nerf to Bard would make Machinist the second most popular range job in the game. That just isn't going to happen. Even when it was decidedly better than Bard in Heavensward, people simply weren't as keen to play it. Machinist just isn't popular. It never has been even when it was meta.