Let's Talk the Twins and Their End Goals

[MetalSnakeXI1]

Given that we now know the truth behind the founding of the empire and its true motives, I don’t think there’s any scope for ‘logic and reason’ to convert Alphinaud to their cause.
Unless you’re counting his support of the Populares and of overthrowing the current regime to rob the Ascians of their influence, which is pretty much what’s already in the pipeline and is still in line with his character anyway.
As for their stance on eikons, we’re all on the same page there anyway, no one wants eikons, it’s just that the empire blames everyone else for them when they’re also partially responsible, and wants to control everyone with an iron fist to prevent them.

The empire is hugely responsible for the recent surges in Primal summoning throughout XIV ever since Nael Van Darnus's meteor project.Cuz in their abuse towards the beast tribes they just caused them to pray to their primals even more than they already been doing.The Black Wolf legion in ARR abused the Amaal'ja,Ixali and Kobolds just to power up the Ultima Weapon with the essence of the three primals and Illberd's summoning of Shinryu wouldn't have been a thing in HW had they not abused Ala Mhigo/Gyr Abania so much...which later in SB would cause the summoning of Lakshmi....not to mention Asahi's fanatical obsession with Zenos and how Elidibus took advantage of that to turn Yotsuyu into Tsukiyomi

Unless Alphinaud and the Populares succeed in changing the way Garlemald is being ran,which is already hard to do with how tight the Ascian's grip on it's government is right now,The empire will always bear at least 80% of the blame so I'd say they're more than partially responsible.

True we both want the same thing.....but the current government's method of achieving went a little too overboard especially when Zenos became a viceroy and he ended up doing what Nael did even if on a much lesser scale for his own gains

[Jonnycbad]

This is just a crack-pot theory, but the whole theme of FFXIV is Light<->Dark and how they're intertwined. The whole concept of ying and yang is that there's a spot of darkness in light and there's a spot of light in the darkness. This is also referenced by how even among the Ascians, there is one (Elidbus) amidst their ranks who isn't exactly our enemy. I wonder if there is an agent of darkness amidst the ranks of the Scions to be the counterpart of Elidbus (a sympathizer who is working against as a mole). I always thought it was Urianger but he turned out to be a red herring in 3.3. I wonder if it won't be the twins. I can imagine the twins being Ascians all along who have been guiding our actions from the start. Then, when we fight them at the end of 6.5 or whatever they fuse into Meltigemini from FF9 >

[Remedi]

.The Black Wolf legion in ARR abused the Amaal'ja,Ixali and Kobolds just to power up the Ultima Weapon with the essence of the three primals an

That is actually wrong, It was Garuda that forced the captive Amaal'ja and kobolds to summon forth their primals so that she could drank their aether and become stronger to face Gaius, but then she played in his plan and he used the ultima weapon to to conquer them.

That said Primal summoning will happen anywhere there are struggles as evidenced by Leviathan and Titan who were summoned by territorial struggles with Lominsa

[Cilia]

Let's clear up a few things.

The Empire is indirectly responsible for all the primal summons in the Sixth and Seventh Astral Eras; prior to the attack on Silvertear, there were no documented instances of primal summons anywhere during the Sixth Astral Era. It is not directly responsible for all primal summons, but its activities do agitate people into summons, and its machinations have directly lead to at least one summon (Tsukuyomi).

Anyone with a lick of reason can't be swayed to the Empire's cause via reason and logic because the Empire's logic is circular. "We conquer other countries because they summon eikons, which they summon because we try to conquer them." Even Gaius figured it out - he wouldn't march on Eorzea again after the Calamity until he had a way to permanently deal with the primals, as he was aware the locals would summon in response to such aggression. (Lahabrea was only too happy to provide him with what he sought, and the rest is history.)

Let's try not to make this another Garlemald debate... please?

[MetalSnakeXI1]

That is actually wrong, It was Garuda that forced the captive Amaal'ja and kobolds to summon forth their primals so that she could drank their aether and become stronger to face Gaius, but then she played in his plan and he used the ultima weapon to to conquer them.

That said Primal summoning will happen anywhere there are struggles as evidenced by Leviathan and Titan who were summoned by territorial struggles with Lominsa

Oops...sorry,it's been forever since I watched that scene so I mixed up some detail

[Seraphor]

Let's clear up a few things.

The Empire is indirectly responsible for all the primal summons in the Sixth and Seventh Astral Eras; prior to the attack on Silvertear, there were no documented instances of primal summons anywhere during the Sixth Astral Era. It is not directly responsible for all primal summons, but its activities do agitate people into summons, and its machinations have directly lead to at least one summon (Tsukuyomi).

Anyone with a lick of reason can't be swayed to the Empire's cause via reason and logic because the Empire's logic is circular. "We conquer other countries because they summon eikons, which they summon because we try to conquer them." Even Gaius figured it out - he wouldn't march on Eorzea again after the Calamity until he had a way to permanently deal with the primals, as he was aware the locals would summon in response to such aggression. (Lahabrea was only too happy to provide him with what he sought, and the rest is history.)

Let's try not to make this another Garlemald debate... please?

Anyone with a lick of reason... and yet we continue to bomb the Middle East.

[Cilia]

Anyone with a lick of reason... and yet we continue to bomb the Middle East.

Dragging real-world politics in here? Ooooh.

A lot of people are either unaware of that operation or openly disagree with it. I happen to be one of them. Unfortunately, like in Garlemald the common people don't hold any real power in their government... or we might not have a plausible perjurer now seated on the Supreme Court.

... but that has no bearing on this discussion. Please, drop it.

[Seraphor]

Dragging real-world politics in here? Ooooh.

A lot of people are either unaware of that operation or openly disagree with it. I happen to be one of them. Unfortunately, like in Garlemald the common people don't hold any real power in their government... or we might not have a plausible perjurer now seated on the Supreme Court.

... but that has no bearing on this discussion. Please, drop it.

It has everything to do with this discussion. My intention isn't to segway into a real life political debate, but to draw the obvious parallel that clearly inspired the story, to illustrate it's implications in the world FFXIV.

Acts of 'terrorism' commited by the empire/American armed forces has driven otherwise peaceful people to go to desperate and extreme measures to do what they see as defend themselves from and/or retaliate against a foreign oppressive force.

If people in the west can support the wars in the middle east through 'logic and reason', then it stands to reason that Garlean citizens could do the same.

This 'logic and reason' wouldn't be enough to convince all Garleans that their actions in Eorzea are wrong. It would take the revelation that they're puppets to the Ascians to do that.

[Cilia]

It has everything to do with this discussion. My intention isn't to segway into a real life political debate, but to draw the obvious parallel that clearly inspired the story, to illustrate it's implications in the world FFXIV.

Acts of 'terrorism' commited by the empire/American armed forces has driven otherwise peaceful people to go to desperate and extreme measures to do what they see as defend themselves from and/or retaliate against a foreign oppressive force.

If people in the west can support the wars in the middle east through 'logic and reason', then it stands to reason that Garlean citizens could do the same.

This 'logic and reason' wouldn't be enough to convince all Garleans that their actions in Eorzea are wrong. It would take the revelation that they're puppets to the Ascians to do that.

You might have made your point a bit clearer... but I digress.

What's being used to sway the populace is emotion, not logic or reason, in both cases. Fearmongering, specifically. (Zenos might have been batshit crazy otherwise, but he was spot on in saying the Garlean war machine was ultimately driven by fear.) I don't want to get too off-topic, so I'm not going to delve into the differences.

And of course logic and reason wouldn't be able to convince the Garlean people their actions are wrong. Hearts aren't moved by logic, after all. Were I a betting man (and I assure you, I am not) I'd wager some of the more staunch Imperials wouldn't abandon the cause even if they knew their actions were all in service to a lie - they'd just try to shake off the Ascian yoke and continue onward.

[Remedi]

It's a lòie yes, but it has a truth in the fact that primals do kill the enviroment by draining the aether, as such it might aswell be a truth for them