Let's Talk the Twins and Their End Goals

[Theodric]

I don't think anybody is suggesting that Alphinaud or Alisae are 'evil'.

That doesn't mean they're incapable of being manipulated or simply making a poor choice that causes problems later down the line. In Alphinaud's case that already happened. He learned from it, though.

Previous Final Fantasy games have had protagonists do things that ended up being the wrong decision to make. It led to some pretty memorable moments - and it's certainly a lot more interesting than having the protagonists always pick the right plan and have everything work out perfectly in their favour.

I imagine it will be a theme explored during the upcoming expansion, though not necessarily with Alphinaud and Alisae.

[Ramesses]

To the OP:

Full disclosure... I'm a fan of Alphinaud, so you might consider my comments biased... or not.

Personally, I believe the twins will continue to be an integral part of this game for years to come and I actually foresee Alphy evolving into a fantastic leader of a new Sharlayan, perhaps even a protegy of Gaius... but who knows these things? His core strength is politics and he has the kind of "Beautiful Mind" that comes in very handy when analyzing mysterious knots in situations.

His twin will likely evolve into an Ambassador of sorts focusing on the protection of relics, artifacts, Echo users, rare crystals etc that are in tune with maintaining balance on Hydaelyn.

I honestly do not see them being manipulated into descending into full blown "evil"... not just because they have the family name to maintain but their evolution so far has not steered them down that path. There is a sense of enduring honour (and a genuine affection for the WoL) that I expect will sufficiently keep them on their "good" path... the meaning of good in this instance being subjective. Make an attempt on one twin's life and I expect the other twin will go Super Saiyan mode.

By the way, the twins will sprout and grow to be very tall once they hit twenty summers old... they are not "half-Lalafells" (this theory continues to come up on the forums and it cracks me into grins everytime I read this). Again, as I said before a little while ago, several people seem to have forgotten (or didn't know) that Elezen youth have very stunted growth until they reach twenty years of age. This is due to their longer lifespans than the other races; hence, they age much slower during puberty.

After that, they will sprout to their full Elezen height.

[Guiballad]

While i think op's theory about the Twins being secretly evil the whole time is... really bad (and even worse if true) it did got me thinking about a couple of things.

Did we ever find out what happened to Tupsimati (A.K.A. Louisoux's staff)? And what did Alisae do with her grimoire since she ditched it for a rapier? Because one of those two maybe be the MacGuffin that leads into the "Twin Dooms". I'm fully ready to accept that Tupsimati was destroyed with Papalymo as it gives a nice sense of closure to Lousioux legacy but the Twins' Grimoires are also implied to hold something special. If i'm not mistaken we kinda see it being used during the Coil storyline and then it just never really comes back.

Maybe next patch we find out that Alisae's Grimoire was stolen and it kind of becomes a race against time between us and (probably) the Ascians for Alphie's so we can prevent some disastrous event from taking place. Would be an interesting lead into 5.0 instead of an outright disaster like the last two times.

[ObsidianFire]

Tupsimati was used by Papalymo to contain Shinryu and it's implied to have been destroyed at that time. At the very least, it hasn't been seen since that time. That said, Tupsimati was recovered after the battle at Carteanau, so who knows. I get the feeling the Scions and the Alliance would have searched the area the Omega/Shinryu battle thoroughly for any detritus of that fight. I'm taking the fact that it hasn't cropped up yet when Tupsimati spent all of 2.0 in Waking Sands/Rising Stones to mean that at the very least, the Scions and the Alliance have not found it yet. Weather that means someone else has it or there is nothing left of Tupsimati to find... well... there's no way to know for sure yet.

As for Alisae's Grimoire (officially know as "Adelphoi") I assume she's doing what we do with all our different weapons and just has it somewhere else on her person. Interestingly, her original aetherial blade is summoned from her grimoire. I can't in any way see here losing it given as her grimoire was made for her by Lousioux.

[Vidu]

It’s still an awful theory, because it’s not true. Their grandfather was a Scion who saved Eorzea in prayer. They followed his footsteps, and sought answers during the Coils of Bahamut. There’s no indication of them being evil at all. It would literally ruin the Scions, and make a bunch of people upset.

Even though I dont have a theory on the twins of my own as of right now, I'd like to question this statement.

Following in their grandfathers footsteps to save Eorzea could still lead them down a dark and nasty road - the Garleans believe that they're saving the world aswell after all and that they are doing the right thing.

The Scions are already pretty non-existant at this point - after no one wanted to take the leadership-position we kept the name and headquarters, but not much else. Everyone is basically doing their own thing. HW (thankfully) had little to no Scion-action, because Alphinaud sucessfully ruined them at the end of ARR already.

On the topic of upsetting people: I dont mean to upset you, but I'd say that thats what we would actually need in the story.
When Alisae was sneaking behind Urianger and Urianger on the other collaborating with Elidibus, I had high hopes that one of them would turn out to be a traitor - I like both characters, but I was very disappointed when they both turned out loyal, because thats just boring. All that tension building up to end with "I was on your side all along, guys!"
Same with Thancred - all that build up only to end with "Hahah, wasnt me, I was possed!"

At this point I'd find it almost refreshing to have Alphinaud get into Garlemald and be converted to the cause of the Empire by logic and reason, not brainwash, so that when we meet him again hes not Louis perfect little grandson anymore.
Saying that no member of the Scions can ever turn to "evil" makes them all incredible one-dimensional and boring in my eyes. Your reasoning is basically a moral plot-armor and I'm not a fan of the physical one to begin with.
Every intelligent, living creature can turn to "evil" given the right circumstances. Why should the twins be any different?

[Iscah]

Tupsimati was used by Papalymo to contain Shinryu and it's implied to have been destroyed at that time. At the very least, it hasn't been seen since that time. That said, Tupsimati was recovered after the battle at Carteanau, so who knows. I get the feeling the Scions and the Alliance would have searched the area the Omega/Shinryu battle thoroughly for any detritus of that fight.

One of the Tales from the Calamity includes Kan-E-Senna searching for the broken staff, apparently able to sense its "aetheric currents in the air" but still having to look hard to find it.

And Alphinaud and Alisaie's story that I linked earlier has some information about their grimoires:

“Even had you not gained admission to the Studium—and made me exceedingly proud in so doing—these gifts would have been yours regardless. Here—one for each of you. When read together, these two grimoires form a single tome. Provided you support one another’s studies, I have no doubt that you will soon come to understand the lessons inscribed therein.” The volumes Louisoix gave to his grandchildren scant hours before his departure were curious indeed. Crafted such that the contents of one could not be deciphered without the other, they hinted at the impish humor which danced behind the ofttimes solemn visage of Sharlayan’s preeminent sage and scholar.

The lorebook also gives some information on the grimoires - both are named Adelphoi:

Encyclopedia Eorzea p. 193:

(Alphinaud's) Adelphoi
Alphinaud's grimoire is one of a set Louisoix crafted for his grandchildren. Alone, it enables an arcanist to channel his magicks with ease, allowing for complex incantations. When wielded in tandem with Alisaie's grimoire, however, new arcane geometries appear, and its true power is made manifest.

(Alisaie's) Adelphoi
The second of Louisoix's grimoires, Alisaie does not use it to invoke a Carbuncle, but rather summons a gleaming aetherial sword from its pages - a feat learned through her long travels, and not easily mimicked.

[MetalSnakeXI1]

Tupsimati was used by Papalymo to contain Shinryu and it's implied to have been destroyed at that time. At the very least, it hasn't been seen since that time. That said, Tupsimati was recovered after the battle at Carteanau, so who knows. I get the feeling the Scions and the Alliance would have searched the area the Omega/Shinryu battle thoroughly for any detritus of that fight. I'm taking the fact that it hasn't cropped up yet when Tupsimati spent all of 2.0 in Waking Sands/Rising Stones to mean that at the very least, the Scions and the Alliance have not found it yet. Weather that means someone else has it or there is nothing left of Tupsimati to find... well... there's no way to know for sure yet.

As for Alisae's Grimoire (officially know as "Adelphoi") I assume she's doing what we do with all our different weapons and just has it somewhere else on her person. Interestingly, her original aetherial blade is summoned from her grimoire. I can't in any way see here losing it given as her grimoire was made for her by Lousioux.

If the case of Gaius/Shadowhunter taught me anything it's this:Unless you see something dies/gets destroyed on screen,most likely it survived.

So who knows maybe both Tupsimati AND Papalymo survived,heck if Louisoux survived the battle with FREAKIN BAHAMUT(well as the primal Phoenix but still).....I'd say Papalymo is probably drifting in the flow of aether.I know that the mark bounding him to Lyse disappeared but I don't think thats enough confirmation for death

[Nalien]

I'd say Papalymo is probably drifting in the flow of aether.I know that the mark bounding him to Lyse disappeared but I don't think thats enough confirmation for death

Clearly Papalymo is the person doing the Calling!

But nah, I'd say he is dead just based off the final screen from the Stormblood credits. That was pretty much a perfect farewell, bringing him back after that would be so much worse than any of the fake outs we've had thus far.

Tupsimati I assume was burnt out during the casting. It was already damaged to begin with, add to that the fact that Papalymo was doing the same spell Louisoux attempted, albeit with far less prep time and no "Lets partially summon the Twelve to help", I could see that being enough strain on the artifact to destroy it. If they intended it to be used again, I imagine they'd have added a scene where it drops to the ground, or a scene where <insert character here> finds it. Just look at Nidhoggs Eyes, they weren't very subtle with those being recovered by the Warriors of Darkness. It could still be kicking around, but given nobody seems to care about it, despite us at one point having to guard it from an Ascian... It's been forgotten if nothing else...

Come to think of it, wasn't there some dialog early in Stormblood where they mention going over the wall looking for Papalymo or something? Could have sworn there was a "We looked by found nothing ANYWAY NEW EXPANSION" moment early on...

[MetalSnakeXI1]

Clearly Papalymo is the person doing the Calling!

But nah, I'd say he is dead just based off the final screen from the Stormblood credits. That was pretty much a perfect farewell, bringing him back after that would be so much worse than any of the fake outs we've had thus far.

Tupsimati I assume was burnt out during the casting. It was already damaged to begin with, add to that the fact that Papalymo was doing the same spell Louisoux attempted, albeit with far less prep time and no "Lets partially summon the Twelve to help", I could see that being enough strain on the artifact to destroy it. If they intended it to be used again, I imagine they'd have added a scene where it drops to the ground, or a scene where <insert character here> finds it. Just look at Nidhoggs Eyes, they weren't very subtle with those being recovered by the Warriors of Darkness. It could still be kicking around, but given nobody seems to care about it, despite us at one point having to guard it from an Ascian... It's been forgotten if nothing else...

Come to think of it, wasn't there some dialog early in Stormblood where they mention going over the wall looking for Papalymo or something? Could have sworn there was a "We looked by found nothing ANYWAY NEW EXPANSION" moment early on...

Well I wouldn't want the impact of Papalymo's death be gone,I'm just speculating cuz even if he came back I'd imagine there will be a catch just like Louisoux.

As for Tupsimati.....depends if the upcoming expansion has some calamity-esque events similar to the summonings of Bahamut and Shinryu. And knowing what the likes of Zenos are capable of(even if he lost his body to Elidibus and is now using the body of a random Elezen)....I'd assume the endgame next time would be much more calamitous than Shinryu's summoning

[Seraphor]

At this point I'd find it almost refreshing to have Alphinaud get into Garlemald and be converted to the cause of the Empire by logic and reason, not brainwash, so that when we meet him again hes not Louis perfect little grandson anymore.

Given that we now know the truth behind the founding of the empire and its true motives, I don’t think there’s any scope for ‘logic and reason’ to convert Alphinaud to their cause.
Unless you’re counting his support of the Populares and of overthrowing the current regime to rob the Ascians of their influence, which is pretty much what’s already in the pipeline and is still in line with his character anyway.
As for their stance on eikons, we’re all on the same page there anyway, no one wants eikons, it’s just that the empire blames everyone else for them when they’re also partially responsible, and wants to control everyone with an iron fist to prevent them.