How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

While this is true there is something to be said about giving people less tools to be jerks. We have all played with a much larger amount of jerks than we realise because these people had no parser to use as a platform to be awful people.

As I said before in this thread I played WoW before parsers were commonly used and the community changed for the worse when they became commonplace...or rather, we saw the community for what it actually was to be more precise. When jerks have no ammunition they're just going to play the content like everyone else. When they do have ammo, their true colours come out. I see absolutely no reason why it would be any different in XIV. A parser would most definitely make jerks feel they are justified to be more openly hostile. You only need to use PF for ex and savage to see this behaviour already.

Again not disputing that parsers are useful tools, because they are. The unfortunate truth is they're often used as an excuse to be horrible to people.

Numerous people have claimed the opposite regarding WoW; that its toxicity comes from a variety of places, not simply parsers.

Even taken at face value. I, personally, disagree with a coddle mentality. They took this approach with Feast chat and look how well that worked? It's among the many reasons people won't even bother with PvP. Regardless, wouldn't it be better to reap the benefits of a helpful tool while simultaneously banning people who abuse it? After all, if they did feel emboldened to harass people, they'll be caught much quicker than they would otherwise.

[Penthea]

Numerous people have claimed the opposite regarding WoW; that its toxicity comes from a variety of places, not simply parsers.

I'd love to hear what these other places are because a huge chunk of the toxicity in WoW I encountered was related to parsers. It may even have been most of it.

The games change but players stay the same. If FFXIV gets an official parser I'll be shocked if the mentality towards it is different to WoW. Before parsers were commonplace in that game the community wasn't too different to how XIV is right now. I'd love to be proven wrong but it's unlikely.

Even taken at face value. I, personally, disagree with a coddle mentality. They took this approach with Feast chat and look how well that worked? It's among the many reasons people won't even bother with PvP. Regardless, wouldn't it be better to reap the benefits of a helpful tool while simultaneously banning people who abuse it? After all, if they did feel emboldened to harass people, they'll be caught much quicker than they would otherwise.

Prevention is better than cure.

It's very wishful thinking to imply that parsers would make it easier to clamp down on jerks. A lot of people don't report poor behaviour because they don't know how to or are so demoralised after the event they see little point. If parsers helped the behaviour of the community in a positive way...well all these threads about how parsers may or may not cause drama wouldn't exist.

And I disagree with calling it a coddle mentality. Since when is it coddling to want to reduce the chance of encountering harassment as a victim or observer? It's a bad thing now to want to minimise needless drama? What a depressing thought.

[MoroMurasaki]

And I disagree with calling it a coddle mentality. Since when is it coddling to want to reduce the chance of encountering harassment as a victim or observer? It's a bad thing now to want to minimise needless drama? What a depressing thought.

How does giving people less information reduce their chances of encountering harrassment?

I said it several times a few pages ago but I think the community needs to remember what harrassment is.

If you tell me I'm an awful RDM and that I should (in the interest of keeping it current) 'uncheck the play-like-s***-box in character configuration' well then you're harassing me and I can report you.

If you say to me 'Hey your dps is notably low for this level ' that isn't harrassment. The only reason it's reportable right now is because of SE's ridiculous rules against third party tools.

If you think both of those are harrassment then there is no reason for anyone to talk to you about this, you're starting from a place of misunderstanding and logic won't work.

So clearly you have nothing to say might wanna look up how to have a debate/argument. Do so before you reply to this otherwise please don't. But I don't have much faith in you this is the internet after all and someone told you you're wrong with reasons you can't have that.

Debate and argument are two different things. Debate rules exist primarily to separate the two.

Might want to look how that works while you also math your way to a flawless rotation.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I'd love to hear what these other places are because a huge chunk of the toxicity in WoW I encountered was related to parsers. It may even have been most of it.

The games change but players stay the same. If FFXIV gets an official parser I'll be shocked if the mentality towards it is different to WoW. Before parsers were commonplace in that game the community wasn't too different to how XIV is right now. I'd love to be proven wrong but it's unlikely.

I'd have to dig, but a few people in this very thread mentioned it. Regardless, you have to consider the enormous difference in population. And as per usual, negative news always travels faster than anything positive. You will always more about bad experiences than good even if said bad experiences are outnumbered a 100:1. In fact, look no further than people who generalize Balmung or Gilgamesh, claiming they always see shitty players from there, be it in terms of skill, attitude or both. Is it that both servers are awful, or that they dwarf every other server (or used to), thus making it far more likely to find a jerk from either?

And I disagree with calling it a coddle mentality. Since when is it coddling to want to reduce the chance of encountering harassment as a victim or observer? It's a bad thing now to want to minimise needless drama? What a depressing thought.

That is the very definition of coddling. A beneficial tool is being banned because some people may abuse it and say mean things. How is this any different than an equivalent "safe space?" Instead of rooting out the toxic individuals, you're shifting blame on the tool itself. Reducing encounters of harassment should not come with "ban every potential tool that may cause it even if said harassment will be in a distinct minority." The devs tried this approach with Feast chat. Ironically, it made Feast worse because now we can't properly communicate. All because some people were assholes. That is pretty much coddling 101.

And these threads exist because parsers have essentially become a boogeyman. There is no basis whatsoever the community would dissolve into anarchy if tomorrow the devs openly allowed ACT to be discussed publicly. Typically, you see exaggerated doom and gloom scenarios or people who aren't very good wanting to preserve the status quo lest they be called out for their lack of willingness to improve.

[Penthea]

I'd have to dig, but a few people in this very thread mentioned it.

So in other words parser toxicity is the most common form of toxicity in WoW that you know of, given you can't even remember anything else.

That is the very definition of coddling. A beneficial tool is being banned because some people may abuse it and say mean things. How is this any different than an equivalent "safe space?"

Firstly it's very unlikely that's the only reason why its banned. Another but less mentioned criticism about parsers is that players often use them as the sole indication of a class's worth. While this may look harmless at a glance, this is something that actually threatens class identity.

It's well known among raiders that certain classes have lower dps potential to balance out having utility. Proper raiders usually understand this balance but outside of that playerbase it tends to be misunderstood. Some people automatically assume a certain class isn't worth playing if the damage output of another is higher, and they don't even give a thought to utility. As time went on in WoW utility became less and less relevant partially because the community began to prioritise damage far above everything else. This actually caused a lot of friction because players felt like their favoured classes/specs were being overlooked, and it was a major contributing factor to a lot of class homogenisation. If there was an official parser I'd be shocked if rdm would still be as popular as it is now. Right now it's mostly the raiding community who hesitate to take rdm on anything but progress. But if everyone could easily see how much lower their damage potential is than a smn, rdm would be significantly less popular even outside of raiding circles.

Secondly this beneficial tool is too easily abused, and thus it can become the opposite of a beneficial tool. I won't argue that it's beneficial to see your performance in a way that can be analysed, because it is. However the issue is quite a large amount of players don't know how to use this tool properly.

In WoW I got hassle on an alt because my dps was crap...but it was crap because most of my dps came from dots and mobs died well before they could have their full effect. I tried explaining this but all I got was "lol l2p". The funny thing is on my main I played the same class and I had among the highest dps in our raids even though it wasn't even my main spec. I definitely knew how to play it. But due to classes not being designed to be balanced in low lvl content, and encountering players who don't understand this, I got hassle over something completely out of my control. This was far from the first time I had seen something like this happen.

I already see this sort of thing in XIV. Every so often when I pug dungeons I see healers given snarky remarks over lack of dps even though the tank is obviously putting them in a position in which they can't do much dps or else there will be a wipe. This is already happening just from people watching hardcasts in the party ui. Can you imagine what that would be like if everyone had a parser?

Instead of rooting out the toxic individuals, you're shifting blame on the tool itself.

No I'm not, I'm blaming people who don't know how to use a parser correctly and people who intentionally misuse it. I think parsers are great tools, but I'm also painfully aware of how common it is for people to use them incorrectly. I don't think any amount of tutorials or in-game help messages would mitigate that. Parser misuse is still happening in WoW despite the fact it's been in the game for over a decade. If a lot of the community there still can't use it correctly after all this time, what makes you think XIV would be any better or different?

All this being said I think XIV should give better tools to allow players to access their own performance. At the very least the game should display personal dps. The stone sky sea dummies should also display dps instead of just giving players a timer to go on and forcing them to go to a third party tool to glean the true meaning behind their kill time. Additionally there should be more analytical utility given to target dummy furnishings, because right now their function is too basic. Currently pc players are at a distinct advantage when it comes to analysing personal dps and I think SE should address this in some manner.

But introducing a normal parser in which you can compare yourself to others at a glance? No I'm strongly against this because my time in WoW showed me the long-term ill effects from it. The gain doesn't outweigh the negative aspects.

[Vahlnir]

But introducing a normal parser in which you can compare yourself to others at a glance? No I'm strongly against this because my time in WoW showed me the long-term ill effects from it. The gain doesn't outweigh the negative aspects.

Yep, nailed it right on the head. Imo a parser that is used to gauge the performance of yourself as well as your party members isn't the best idea. it's one of those things that people think they want, but they don't. They should be careful what they wish for. A personal parser is fine. Beyond that I just don't see it ending well. I'm a firm believer that parsers themselves aren't bad. It's how (and when) they are used. Personal experience has shown me how much they are misused, and it is too often. Once that can of worms is opened there is no going back. People need to consider the ramifications of such a tool in the wrong hands.

[Legion88]

All this being said I think XIV should give better tools to allow players to access their own performance. At the very least the game should display personal dps. The stone sky sea dummies should also display dps instead of just giving players a timer to go on and forcing them to go to a third party tool to glean the true meaning behind their kill time. Additionally there should be more analytical utility given to target dummy furnishings, because right now their function is too basic. Currently pc players are at a distinct advantage when it comes to analysing personal dps and I think SE should address this in some manner.

But introducing a normal parser in which you can compare yourself to others at a glance? No I'm strongly against this because my time in WoW showed me the long-term ill effects from it. The gain doesn't outweigh the negative aspects.

Stop right now.
Dummies have only one use: training muscle memory.

We don't really need a parser, because it is already ingame: the battle log.
The only problem is, that the battle log is hard and to time consuming to read and analyse.
We need an analysing tool like fflogs and xivanalysis to transvere the data from the battle log into easy readable and interpretable display with timelines, graphs and charts.

Informations from a dummy can only be used for a xivanalysis style autointerpreting and hint giving for a base improvement of the jobs knowledge.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

So in other words parser toxicity is the most common form of toxicity in WoW that you know of, given you can't even remember anything else.

That is... a quantum leap in logic. Or lack thereof. I merely stated people in this very thread have said otherwise. In what universe does that abruptly make it the most common form of toxicity. In my experiences, albeit from forum discussions and reddit as I do not play WoW myself, parsers aren't any more toxic than anything else. You're putting forth anecdotal evidence and claiming it factual.

Firstly it's very unlikely that's the only reason why its banned.

Because the developers want us to pick up the slack for other players. Yoshidra outright stated as much almost verbatim. They have the misguided belief people will muscle bad players through, thus bolstering clear rates. While this mentality does work in Japan, it simply doesn't in NA/EU. In fact, it's a very common Japanese development philosophy to obscure information as they either want you to figure it out independently or play the game as they envision it. This is why JRPG are numerous for more convoluted system design than their Western counterpart. Put simply, the devs want us to simply clear content. Which is fine, in theory, but a good amount of raiders either way to see gradual improvement or don't want to carry players they perceive liability. There's a reason ranking systems have become ubiquitous nowadays, and why it's a highly requested feature for FFXIV itself; in the form of Mythic+.

Another but less mentioned criticism about parsers is that players often use them as the sole indication of a class's worth. While this may look harmless at a glance, this is something that actually threatens class identity.

This already happens. An official parse won't make a lick of difference because most people who care about job balance are already well aware which jobs are more favourable. It's literally among the first things theorycrafters work out whenever new adjustments are made. The difference between WoW and FFXIV is everything in the latter has viability. WoW, on the other hand, doesn't. Some classes are simply inferior in every way. I can't go into specifics since I only know from hearsay, but it's fairly common knowledge WoW balance shifts on a whim, and some classes don't fair too well. Nevertheless, when "meta" has been brought up on Reddit, the typically response is, "Who cares? Everything is viable." So no, I'm not buying a public parse would abruptly make people dismiss Red Mages in dungeons. Which is a ludicrous thought anyway since their AoE potential is monstrous. People generally don't care what you do in dungeons beyond healers DPS, larger pulls and aoe-ing. Even Savage where parse use is commonplace, they don't. Most groups who block Samurai or Black Mage do so because they have come across so many bad ones, they're just a little jaded.

Secondly this beneficial tool is too easily abused, and thus it can become the opposite of a beneficial tool. I won't argue that it's beneficial to see your performance in a way that can be analysed, because it is. However the issue is quite a large amount of players don't know how to use this tool properly.

In WoW I got hassle on an alt because my dps was crap...but it was crap because most of my dps came from dots and mobs died well before they could have their full effect. I tried explaining this but all I got was "lol l2p". The funny thing is on my main I played the same class and I had among the highest dps in our raids even though it wasn't even my main spec. I definitely knew how to play it. But due to classes not being designed to be balanced in low lvl content, and encountering players who don't understand this, I got hassle over something completely out of my control. This was far from the first time I had seen something like this happen.

And? Some moron acted like a jerk, only making themselves look foolish. Who cares? You laugh and move on with your life. I had a Tsukiyomi EX party where a Samurai I was out-dpsing by a 1,000 despite having died called me shit when I said people need to step up the damage. You know what I did? I laughed at him. I also mentioned in a roundabout manner the Bard was doing almost double his damage when he mouthed off to her. By the way, here is a prime example of toxicity, and it isn't coming from the parse users. Remember how I accused your stance of coddling? This is precisely why. Some idiot says mean words to someone, and we need to wrap them in blankets and ban the parsers because they may, possibly, potentially, unknowingly get their knickers twisted. We can't have anyone's feelings hurt! You have just described a safe space.

I once got yelled at by a very good player. He wasn't particularly rude, just blunt. I messed up mechanics because it was 4am and a friend dragged me into Sephirot EX when I was half asleep. Did it sting a bit? Sure. I still pulled up my panties and got over it. They were right to criticise. And even if they weren't, I shrug it off and move on.

I already see this sort of thing in XIV. Every so often when I pug dungeons I see healers given snarky remarks over lack of dps even though the tank is obviously putting them in a position in which they can't do much dps or else there will be a wipe. This is already happening just from people watching hardcasts in the party ui. Can you imagine what that would be like if everyone had a parser?

Yes, you could point out to the DPS crying about everything taking longer maybe they ought to do more damage than the White Mage.

This is entire post is, frankly, quite disingenuous. You only highlight the negative; insinuating a doom and gloom scenario is basically the only possible outcome. Meanwhile, I have actually spoken to people who had no one idea they were doing anything wrong because the game does a piss poor job showing any information. Not too long ago, I even had a Dark Knight in Guardian Normal ask if someone were parsing. Why? He'd been trying to improve but as a PS4 player, he couldn't see his numbers. Unfortunately, people rarely discuss the positive side of parsing because drama is typically more compelling on forums. That, and you have people convinced ACT is the boogeyman that will destroy FFXIV if it were ever made public. God forbid you actually improve before trying out Savage...

No I'm not, I'm blaming people who don't know how to use a parser correctly and people who intentionally misuse it.

By coddling the entire community because a few jerks exist. That is shifting blame onto the tool itself; insinuating it's too dangerous. You cannot draw parallels to WoW because your experiences are anecdotal. Not to mention, WoW boasts a significantly larger playerbase. Therefore, as I mentioned earlier. You are going to see more toxicity by virtue of the sheer population difference hence why people generalize Gilgamesh as a "shitty elitist server." You were simply more likely to find an "elitist" on Gilgamesh than Zalera.

All this being said I think XIV should give better tools to allow players to access their own performance. At the very least the game should display personal dps. The stone sky sea dummies should also display dps instead of just giving players a timer to go on and forcing them to go to a third party tool to glean the true meaning behind their kill time. Additionally there should be more analytical utility given to target dummy furnishings, because right now their function is too basic. Currently pc players are at a distinct advantage when it comes to analysing personal dps and I think SE should address this in some manner.

A personal parse, while not a bad start per se, doesn't work well in a game so heavily reliant on team composition. Without any context, a person seeing they're doing 4,000 DPS on Samurai may assume that is pretty decent despite Samurais pulling beyond 7,000. You also have to factor in raid buffs and how they correlate with each respective job. Bards, in particular, are going to have widely fluctuating results because they are more dependent on Crit progs and piercing. Furthermore, you do realize PF will demand you show these personal parses as proof you have a general idea what you're doing, yes? Essentially defeating the entire point behind anonymity.

Regardless, a target dummy will not display accurate results relative to a mechanic active fight whereas a parse will. You can see in live action how badly movement impacts your DPS as a Black Mage or how dropping your combo severely lowers your damage. None of this is visible on a dummy that won't do anything. I suppose it's better than nothing though.

[Penthea]

By the way, here is a prime example of toxicity, and it isn't coming from the parse users. Remember how I accused your stance of coddling? This is precisely why. Some idiot says mean words to someone, and we need to wrap them in blankets and ban the parsers because they may, possibly, potentially, unknowingly get their knickers twisted. We can't have anyone's feelings hurt! You have just described a safe space.

And? Some moron acted like a jerk, only making themselves look foolish. Who cares? You laugh and move on with your life.

You are actually acting as if considering the abuse of a tool is a bad thing, simply because the tool can be useful. It appears you do not care of the negative affects a parser can have because you are able to laugh it off if it's directed at you. Not everyone is you. Not everyone is confident in their ability, and not everyone understands the game enough to know if they're being wrongly accused of poor performance.

Some people come to the game to escape and/or relax. Not to be worried about some jerks who are synced down giving them crap for playing a class they're learning or trying to gear up. You may think wanting to prevent this is wrapping people in a blanket, but it's granting a measure of fairness to people to not be judged by a mere glance at some numbers when the reasons for their damage output could very well be completely unrelated to the buttons they're pressing, or justified considering their lack of experience.

Additionally parsers may make lvl sync problematic if sprouts see that their dps cannot compare to lvl 60+ synced players. They may think they are actually doing something wrong when they're not simply because the parser makes it appear so. In a sense the game would be doing parser abuse on its own by potentially making unsynced players look bad.

But apparently looking at the bigger picture equates to swaddling the game in bubble-wrap.

[Legion88]

Some people come to the game to escape and/or relax. Not to be worried about some jerks who are synced down giving them crap for playing a class they're learning or trying to gear up. You may think wanting to prevent this is wrapping people in a blanket, but it's granting a measure of fairness to people to not be judged by a mere glance at some numbers when the reasons for their damage output could very well be completely unrelated to the buttons they're pressing, or justified considering their lack of experience.

Additionally parsers may make lvl sync problematic if sprouts see that their dps cannot compare to lvl 60+ synced players. They may think they are actually doing something wrong when they're not simply because the parser makes it appear so. In a sense the game would be doing parser abuse on its own by potentially making unsynced players look bad.

1.) Initially no one asked for parsers in leveling content, only for dummies, ExTrials and Savage. Only Anti-Parser-People are bringing this up, despite the repeated cases of Pro-Parser-People not wanting this in the "casual" and leveling content.

2.) Common sense should tell people that an unsynced person is always inferior to an synced person due to the synced person having all main and sub stats synced at the possible cap.

3.) People just wanting to relax, having some fun time and escape reality have a whole bunch of content they can enjoy, "casual" content. If they decide to leave their house of "casual" content and should be prepared for the rough weather awaiting them their.