what is it with these damn elitists in this game?

[Legion88]

The thing about elitists is they always blame the player.

Let's be blunt. Savage as a concept simply does not work. We've had three years of it, and the NA playerbase simply does not participate or clear it in large numbers. The idea of hard 8 man content simply is not viable in MMOs I feel, not in the way we have now where it's all or nothing, and 8 people need to do a single dance "solution" to proceed. The problem is people keep blaming the player rather than discussing whether or not the actual design is the issue or not. You can't rely on random people to execute dance steps of that precision together while doing their rotation to beat enrage and having such a small margin of error. It's reflected in the interest for this content and the number of player clears over time.

At this point, there needs to be at least some discussion about whether or not this is viable. I mean, savage has only gotten more accessible over time, and really can't get much harder without alienating even more people who are not expecting carries. This is on top of the rotational difficulty being nerfed heavily on most jobs. If they game gets more complex rotationally again, we could be back to midas and the same problems.

So you say the NA community is to bad to learn a dance? No offense intended.
Just because the needed skill level is high doesn't mean it should be cloesed.
Do you think the Super Bowl isn't viable because just a handful of players can take part in it?

[Dualgunner]

It's more like an honors course. It's optional, it speeds you ahead in the curriculum (gearing) and it often comes with a small amount of prestige; but its more difficult. Not everyone is cut out for honors courses just like not everyone is cut out for Savage.

They already implemented normal modes of the fights, which are themselves designed originally as savage and then watered down. There's nothing people are missing out on by not doing savage, except perhaps glamour possibilities.

If low clearing rates (mind clearing can't indicate participation since the census relies on having the mount which not even everyone who's cleared will have) were so much of an issue, they'd have stopped long ago. But this is a themepark mmo, lots of things for lots of people with expected low turnout since not everyone will want to participate in everything.

[RiyahArp]

You're assuming the majority of the playerbase has the minimum skill level to delve into Savage. Given the level of skill you get on DF/Ex primals regularly, it's not that people aren't interested in Savage itself. They just aren't interested in having a level of skill that allows them to go into Savage.

That's the same thing. In either case, the content model simply doesn't work for the majority of people. But then why are you blaming the people? If people either can't or don't want to buy your product in large amounts, its something to do with the product, no?

Do you think the Super Bowl isn't viable because just a handful of players can take part in it?

Pro sports literally drove everyone out of doing it for recreation since the places where most people experienced them-school-has had sports programs turned into farm prep for aspiring pros. It literally sorted everyone who wasn't intending to play ama-pro out, and now most people's experience with it is going on a website and playing fantasy sports. Like back in the day kids would actually play baseball or football in pickup games in schoolyards, and little league wasn't a bunch of travel teams prepping the precoious players for high level play. If you want to extend it to here, the end result of savage is going to be ultimate, where only a small cadre of pros and aspiring pros actually do it, and everyone else watches it on stream.

The sports thing is a pet peeve of mine though, professionalization of things has over time driven a lot of people out of so many activities and made them spectators or consumers.

[Legion88]

That's the same thing. In either case, the content model simply doesn't work for the majority of people. But then why are you blaming the people? If people either can't or don't want to buy your product in large amounts, its something to do with the product, no?

But there are people buying the product and are very happy with it.
Just because the product isn't for everyone it doesn't mean the product is bad.

[Dualgunner]

That's the same thing. In either case, the content model simply doesn't work for the majority of people. But then why are you blaming the people? If people either can't or don't want to buy your product in large amounts, its something to do with the product, no?

Savage is only part of the content model. The normal modes of every fight and the story associated with it are entirely accessible to everybody who wants them. The Savage content is only for people who want challenging fights, and you of all people should be taking into account not everybody wants to do the more challenging form of these fights.

Again if this model was unsustainable I don't think it wouldn't have sustained for the past five years.

[RiyahArp]

Savage is only part of the content model. The normal modes of every fight and the story associated with it are entirely accessible to everybody who wants them.

But then you can't on the other hand blame players for trying it, failing, and or being bad. There's two conflicting ideas here, one is that what you just said, but the other is that anyone can also raid savage if they put the effort in, and if they fail its because in some way THEY are bad. it's a tension that doesn't really get examined much. Oh, as for five years...well, FATES. We all railed against FATES, and what did they do? add a couple of exp bonuses and its still the same problems if not worse since HW launch.

But there are people buying the product and are very happy with it.
Just because the product isn't for everyone it doesn't mean the product is bad.

You'd have to discuss that among raiders. I mean...if its so fun why can't people keep statics together, or have to constantly pug replacements? Or why does it die down in two weeks?

I'm not intending to trash people, but I think at some point raiders are going to have to look at the content as much as the players and discuss it. Like I expect 5.0 to be harder than 4.0 just because there's nothing left to prune for abilities; that's going to be reflected in savage too, and there may not be the players to blame if so.

[Dualgunner]

I'm going to assume that's the general "you" and agree: yes, you can't fault someone for trying. I actually cheer it on. I think a lot of people who like savage content do; even Xenosys Vex, the elitist raider supreme, joins learning parties regularly and sticks with them until they clear or disband, and if I myself didn't have such harsh social anxiety I'd do the same.

The only place I don't encourage people to "hop in and try it out" is with a farm party. A farm isn't a place to learn the fight or one's job. It's a place to farm the boss for its loot. It also feels dishonest, it reminds me of something Randall from Recess would try to do--sneak into a group that he's hoping 7/8 know already, and get fast tracked to a clear.

In any learning party though, not only full power to them but more power to them. I don't carry Nemekh's quote in my sig for nothing, it's because I believe firmly that everybody can improve, and want them to have full support for when they genuinely try to improve.

[Ilan]

Sorry to inform you, but the people in this forum is elitist to the core and always will give the person that harassed you the reason or the benefit of the doubt. Specially when you say that made a mistake.

Well, situations like you've passed is what keep the majority of the player base away from the raids. Myself included.

Well, the only word we have is from the victim. And we made judgements from it. I chose to take the victim's side. Some people on this topic took the agressor's side.

And what no one considered is that the party was a learning party. If the OP can't make a mistake a mistake on a party which the objective is to learn the fight, then yes, the agressor was elitist.

If the agressor was facing frustration because of that, sorry. His problem. He knew that the party was a learning one and he knew that everyone could miss a mechanic. He should be able to control his emotions. Or close the game for a while to cool down. Once he made that remark, the agressor lost his reason.

You call others elitists which is just another word for toxic, which you obviously don't like, but doing so makes yourself toxic. Not to mention that you are judging a person by listening only to one side of the story. Seems a bit weird to me.

[Legion88]

You'd have to discuss that among raiders. I mean...if its so fun why can't people keep statics together, or have to constantly pug replacements? Or why does it die down in two weeks?

Because people think they can handle the product and choose it and later on they realize they can't really handle it or just to some degree.
Some may never realize that they can't handle it.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I sort of wonder if we were there, how many people actually did them too. At least there has to be some discussion about it now. I can see a class being so hard that most students fail it or don't enroll. But if it's like this after years, with efforts to make it easier, idk if we can keep blaming the students, if you get my drift. I don't know if MMOs can be that hard and work; most i have done made the hard aspect time, not skill required, with not so much all or nothing in terms of rewards.

The problem is you're approaching Savage with the belief it was ever intended to have high clear rates. It wasn't. Hence why Savage and Normal are essentially the same thing, albeit the latter has slightly different mechanics and scaled much higher in difficulty. But it remains entirely optional. A Themepark MMO, by its very nature, is meant to have varied activities that appeal to different types of people. If Savage doesn't appeal to you, don't participate in it. No one is forcing you to.