what is it with these damn elitists in this game?

[Dirwen]

I always assumed FF14 catered to the casual crowd at least that is what I think SE is going for. Telling people to learn their job or gtfo is what I'm sensing from most people here. Which I think is a bad sign if they are representing the community.

I'm just one of those subpar casual gamers that dislike elitists. Then again I'm a poor person that hates on rich people too. Guess I just like hating on the higher class people.

[van_arn]

I always assumed FF14 catered to the casual crowd at least that is what I think SE is going for. Telling people to learn their job or gtfo is what I'm sensing from most people here. Which I think is a bad sign if they are representing the community.

I'm just one of those subpar casual gamers that dislike elitists. Then again I'm a poor person that hates on rich people too. Guess I just like hating on the higher class people.

SE has bent over backwards to make this game appealing to casual players, and that's great! But the instant you cross the threshold beyond normal-tier content, expect to "learn your job or gtfo." Your words.

[Dirwen]

SE has bent over backwards to make this game appealing to casual players, and that's great! But the instant you cross the threshold beyond normal-tier content, expect to "learn your job or gtfo." Your words.

I probably won't try high tier raids for that reason but for those that do I feel for them is all. It's probably why SE only release so few of those raids so the high skilled people have something to do at least. Also yes my words but it's what you guys are thinking. Only calling it out as I see it.

[Vidu]

I always assumed FF14 catered to the casual crowd at least that is what I think SE is going for. Telling people to learn their job or gtfo is what I'm sensing from most people here. Which I think is a bad sign if they are representing the community. I'm just one of those subpar casual gamers that dislike elitists. Then again I'm a poor person that hates on rich people too. Guess I just like hating on the higher class people.

You need to understand that while most content does cater to the more casual gamer and can be completed, even if everyone involved plays at subpar levels, there is content that cant.
Content that is supposed to be a challenge - not everyone enjoy that and thats fine. Thats why we get two versions of this content: a normal version, that includes the story, and an extreme or savage version, that includes the challenge.
Now, a challenge is naturally something you need to be prepared for - for example by being able to play the job you picked at an appropriate level for your level (in this case 70).
If you dont, you have no buisness being in that content - ask yourself: If everyone would be playing at your skill-level, would you be able to clear the content?
If the answer is "no", then you need to improve before you try again - just how it is in any solo-game or probabyl sports irl.

I found the community in general to be pretty nice and helpful, but think about what you're asking here: You are asking 7 other people, who did their homework, learned their jobs, got their gear... to spend more of their freetime on that encounter, just so you can clear it to without having to bother with your own homework.
Or well, you're not asking for this, because you made the sensible choice for yourself not to take on that challenge - which is perfectly fine and okay! If you dont enjoy playing your class to its full potential and dont want to challenge yourself, that is totally okay - in all the content where it doesnt terribly matter in. In all the content that is designed for the more "casual" player - dungeons, NM versions of raids and trials, 24 man raids... but the minute you step into the little content we have in which your performance does matter - Ex-primals, Savage and Ultimate-raids - you better bring that performance or gtfo. Not because the community is made up of evil elitist, but because the people who want to take on those challenges would like to do so with the chance of clearing the content - and if you cant contribute to that, what are you doing there?

The community keep complaining how about how bad players are, yet players try to learn, they are ridiculed. People expect perfection from day 1. Players are human, they will make mistakes. Do you see pro athletes perform perfectly 100% of the time? No. Why is there an expectation in this game that people never make mistakes?

There is a place to learn certain things - as in: an Ex-primal is not the place to learn your rotation, for example. You can do that on a dummy.
And in general people arent kicked over one mistake, specially if they show remorse and express that they know what they did wrong and have every intend of fixing it.

Again: The waste majority isnt expecting perfection - they might very well expect certain things stated in a PF-description. If that says "practise colour-phase" for Suzaku that expectation is clearly that you know how to handle the mechanics leading up to that - if you make an honest mistake there (like confusing clockwise and anti-clockwise), but apologise for it, I doubt anyone will mind - specially if you show afterwards that you know how that mechanic works. But if you are completly clueless and keep messing up, you just dont belong in a party that wants to practise a later phase when you clearly dont have the first one down.

You are expecting 7 strangers to just drop their own goal to help you with yours?

Personally, I dont expect people not to make mistakes - I expect them to not always repeat the same mistake. If someone missplaces their meteor in Tsukuyomi once - no big deal, it happens, we go over that quick ("Please make sure you put the meteor in the right spot"). If that same person missplaces their meteor again, they get asked to pay more attention. And if they repeat that mistake, there needs to be talk about a replacement.
Its not asking for perfection - its asking for actual learning from your mistakes to not repeat them all the time.
And its not asking for anything unreasonable if you expect people to know how to play their class at level 70 - and not to practise that in an Ex-primal run.

An athelete might not be perfect 100% of the time, but if he continues to fail, do you think his sponsor or trainer or team will keep him on?
To use your analogy: I havent played football in... probably 15 years and when I played, I played very, very poorly with no will to improve (dont worry, I eventually stopped alltogether and let the other kids on the playground have the ball). If I were to go to my national football-team and demand to play the next season - do you think they should take me on?
No, of course not - they're looking for people playing at their level. And those people can make the occassional mistake, of course! But if someone would constantly pass the ball to the other team - "uups, didnt notice, hehe, just a little mistake!" - or score more own goals than goals for their actual team - do you think they would and should keep that person on?

...why do people hold this believe that asking for a certain level of skill in content thats meant as a challenge is somehow horrible?

[RuleofThree]

bloop

They were asking if pro athletes perform 100%, every time all the time, when playing with pros. Not your example of if a guy that played football in high school walked up and demanded to play with Man United. You are comparing apples (guy who played football in highschool) to oranges (pro players). Where as they are comparing oranges that are having a 'bad day' in performance, to other pros.

In your case, of course you shouldn't expect someone who doesn't know what they are doing to be let in with people who run that content day after day, blindfold. But kicking someone cause they failed something more than once or twice is a bit much as well.

[Vidu]

They were asking if pro athletes perform 100%, every time all the time, when playing with pros. Not your example of if a guy that played football in high school walked up and demanded to play with Man United. You are comparing apples (guy who played football in highschool) to oranges (pro players). Where as they are comparing oranges that are having a 'bad day' in performance, to other pros.

In your case, of course you shouldn't expect someone who doesn't know what they are doing to be let in with people who run that content day after day, blindfold. But kicking someone cause they failed something more than once or twice is a bit much as well.

In my experience it actually is more like the example/metaphor I used: People dont get mad at someone who is at their general skill-level and shows that, because that person made one mistake - specially if the person in question owns up to it, apologise and signals "It wont happen again, it was an honest mistake, I know what I'm doing" - like that DRK I had in a recent Tsuyu-farm-group: He placed his meteor to late, resulting in a wipe, but he acknowledge that, identified that he made the mistake (and why - he wanted to get one last hit in) and assured us it wouldnt happen again. And it didnt.
One the other hand I had people in such parties who wouldnt understand meteor-placement even after it was explained the third time - and yet they insisted on being in that content. Which is sort of their right, but its also the right of the 7 other people in the party to say "...yeah, not with us".

Most dismisses I'm seeing arent "pros" dismissing "pros" over one mistake - its "pros" dismissing high school players, who believe they're pros because they scored the winning goal against another highschool two seasons ago. Or in other words: Most people I see being dismissed are the ones who cleared the NM and believe because they managed that, they can clear the EX-mode just as easly and then fall flat on their face when they have to realise that EX actually requires an amount of skill and effort that they dont have (yet).

[Vidu]

I don't know, man. I just don't know. I'm with on the notion that if a person is failing a specific mechanic multiple times, something needs to happen. I just...can't bring myself to say that just because a person isn't performing up to your standards, or might be having an off day, doesn't mean he can and probably does do savage content with FCs, or friends, or what have you. I am not so quick to say that because my experience with the other healer in my Shinryu Extreme doesn't know what to do with the first dragon tail marker, or seems to forget where to go for Earth Shaker, it suddenly means that they are shit, and need to go back to casual content.

I'd like to reply to that specifically, because there are two points in there that I'd like to reply to:

First the "not performing to my standards"-thing. I feel that as long as I make those standards clear beforehand, for example in a PF asking people to know the fight up to a certain phase and someone clearly shows that they dont, yet joined anyways, I see nothing wrong with dismissing them with a message of "Sorry, we wanted to practise phase 2, while you clearly need more practise in phase 1 first!"
I found that most "standards" or expectations of people in this game are quite reasonable - as I tried to express in my previous post: Its not 95 percentile, its playing your job at level 70, that shows that you know you're at level 70 and what to do there.

On the off-day-thing: Sure, anyone can have a bad day! But at that point, whats stopping that person from saying "Sorry, today isnt my day, I cant focus - I'll leave this party for now!"

We're obviously only seeing a glimpse of that person performance at any given time - I have FC-mates who will only run stuff with people they know, because we have some rather special ways of dealing with mechanics.
I'm not saying that someone who cant clear content my way cant clear content at all - but if someone joins my party, they will be held to my standards (which are actually pretty low, but obviously there are still certain expectations - basic rotation and strategy down etc.).
If they dont like that, they're very welcome to make their own party.

I dont have an issue with people making mistakes or having a bad day - I have an issue with people joining a party and then trying to bend it to their rules and needs.
PF looking to practise meteors in Suzaku? You better make sure you can reach that point of the fight reliable - instead of throwing the whole party back to square one, with you practising phase one.

A lot people seem to argue for the "poor casual player" who just cant get a kill because "mean elitsts" kick them all the time, while not realising, that those meanies have probably set up parties in a way that benefitted their goals and their playstyle - and the casual player joined them, instead of looking for a party that benefitted their goals and their playstyle.

[MicahZerrshia]

"mean elitsts"

I usually find the real elitests are not the ones who expect you to perform up to a certain level, but the ones who expect you to wipe 20 times on something they can't seem to grasp with a smile on your face and kind words for their attempt. Or the ppl who don't want to bother gearing or learning rotations but still want to be part of a farm or raid group.

I actually stopped raiding in this game because I couldn't handle all the ppl who wanted carries or who would laugh as you wiped for the 30th time because they don't know where to stand even 30 fights later and then rage and scream at you over discord and then bad mouth you or your FC because you simply tell them its not working out. I helped to carry ppl who spent there time face down in the dirt through coil during ARR and even more during HW. I helped ppl who spent 80% of there time KO'd on every primal, get Kirin. I just don't have it in me to do it again.

There is a learning curve, but seriously if you are laughing because you wiped 7 other ppl 20 times or you just cant figure out where to stand after 3 nights of repeated attempts, its not the other players that are the problem.

I have found over the years that the ppl stated above far outnumber the ones that want you to perform to unreal expectations. It's like if you ask ppl to do even the bare minimum or god forbid, learn a 3 button rotation, you are a dirty elistest these days.

[RuleofThree]

A lot people seem to argue for the "poor casual player" who just cant get a kill because "mean elitsts" kick them all the time, while not realising, that those meanies have probably set up parties in a way that benefitted their goals and their playstyle - and the casual player joined them, instead of looking for a party that benefitted their goals and their playstyle.

Those are the people that are using there subpar play style as a crutch, they want a free win. I'm not denying they exist, it's a very real thing, and disgusting. You have every right to get pissed at people that try to do this. I personally have gone in to parties thinking I'm ready for this part of the trial, find out I'm not, and feel like an ass for embarrassing myself and wasting peoples time, and leave....

But so does the other side of the coin....and you guys seem all too quick to dismiss those people as 'oh...he's just being a bit vocal about his opinions.' or even worse 'He has a right to publicly shame and bully you by calling you bad and worthless, you are ruining his play experience.' Sitting here and telling everyone 'Oh, it's cool if someone owns up to their mistake, and says they'll do better. We'll take their word on it, and everything will be fine.' No it won't? And if it does, I - again - want to know where you are living, and if I can have a slice of that comradely.

[Vidu]

But so does the other side of the coin....and you guys seem all too quick to dismiss those people as 'oh...he's just being a bit vocal about his opinions.' or even worse 'He has a right to publicly shame and bully you by calling you bad and worthless, you are ruining his play experience.' Sitting here and telling everyone 'Oh, it's cool if someone owns up to their mistake, and says they'll do better. We'll take their word on it, and everything will be fine.' No it won't? And if it does, I - again - want to know where you are living, and if I can have a slice of that comradely.

I'm not a 100% certain what you are saying here, so I'm not sure if revealing my adress would help.

I never said that shaming anyone anywhere would be okay to do - its not. In the case of the OP I said its understandble, that doesnt mean I approve of it - and since OP kinda did the same, in the sense of their emotions getting the better of them by creating a thread to vent about that guy by throwing around the word "elitist" (we all know that thats used as an insult) and phrases like "How dare he!" I feel its kinda evend out - no angels here.

No one has the right to shame anyone - however I firmely believe that you do have the right to call someone out on the mistakes they're making in a polite or at least neutral manner. Dismissing someone from your party who cant contribute (enough) to the success of the run is a totally legit thing, as long as you do with "Hey, person, I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you need more practise before you can clear this!"
Personally I have excused myself from "kill parties" like that, when it was clear that the group in question needed more practise in the first phase of the fight - "I'm sorry, I'm willing to help you get the kill, but you need to practise phase one first."

I know that treating everyone polite and kind isnt realistic and my adress wont help you because its not happening here - I'm not describing an existing reality, I'm describing how things like that should be handled.
And that would be with respect on both sides - respect from the "elitist" in a way that they can dismiss someone from their party without insults and respect from the "casual" by not sneaking their way into parties in which they dont belong (yet) and wasting the time of other people.
So currently both sides need to work on their behaviour, even where I live.
The problem with that is that it is very easy and "socially acceptable" to say: "Dont insult people!", while asking the other side to change their behaviour is a delicate matter - we dont have official parsers, players arent aware of their skill-level and they are being very sensitive, when you tell them they're doing something wrong (even if you do so in a polite and friendly way).