How does FFXIV fare against other modern MMORPGs?

[Maeka]

FF14 would rank higher on the list if the PvP on the game was better. They need to release more game modes which are more fun. Maybe do smaller maps with less people, with each mode being unique (Wow PvP trumps FF14s every day of the week) Also, add PvP gear that actually does something.

The lack of PvP is a huge part of what makes FFXIV great.

PvP breeds all kinds of terrible behavior, just look at WoW's general community. WoW is a game built around PvP, and tries to get its playerbase to split into two factions, and tries its hardest to get them to hate each other, and of course, it works really well. WoW is very toxic and there is actual player hate towards players of opposite faction. I mean, there was that Blizzcon where a person wearing Alliance colors was physically assaulted by a person (or was it multiple people, I forget) wearing Horde colors.

When you have people physically assaulting each other IRL because of something stupid like an imaginary faction in-game, you've crossed the line.

I'd rather not have more PvP here in FFXIV. The fact it's way off to the side and few people care about it is a good thing.

[Kuukyo]

The lack of PvP is a huge part of what makes FFXIV great.

PvP breeds all kinds of terrible behavior, just look at WoW's general community. WoW is a game built around PvP, and tries to get its playerbase to split into two factions, and tries its hardest to get them to hate each other, and of course, it works really well. WoW is very toxic and there is actual player hate towards players of opposite faction. I mean, there was that Blizzcon where a person wearing Alliance colors was physically assaulted by a person (or was it multiple people, I forget) wearing Horde colors.

When you have people physically assaulting each other IRL because of something stupid like an imaginary faction in-game, you've crossed the line.

I'd rather not have more PvP here in FFXIV. The fact it's way off to the side and few people care about it is a good thing.

PvP is almost like a competitive thing, and nothing is good in that when it comes to relationship. I have played a lot of competitive games and to be honest, I'm very tired when people trash talk and hate on each other. But everyone has their own preference in their MMORPG style. Some like the cartoon-ish and the intense environment of PvP in WoW, while some others prefer to spend their time in PvE, stories, contents and hanging around with a chill community in a well polished game like Final Fantasy XIV, which is a reason why I quit GW2. There are definitely features that I still like in that game but the visual of the game is one of the reason I quit it (I do agree that it looks good but I just have a different taste).

[Maeka]

PvP is almost like a competitive thing, and nothing is good in that when it comes to relationship. I have played a lot of competitive games and to be honest, I'm very tired when people trash talk and hate on each other. But everyone has their own preference in their MMORPG style. Some like the cartoon-ish and the intense environment of PvP in WoW, while some others prefer to spend their time in PvE, stories, contents and hanging around with a chill community in a well polished game like Final Fantasy XIV, which is a reason why I quit GW2. There are definitely features that I still like in that game but the visual of the game is one of the reason I quit it (I do agree that it looks good but I just have a different taste).

*nods*

I get that they (the person I quoted) likes PvP and that's fine... but if they like/want PvP, they should try WoW. I bet they'd love it over there if that's what they are seeking.

Thankfully FFXIV is a game that works very well when playing two MMOs, you can put in 5-10 hours a week and still get plenty done in it which leaves you more than enough time to get another MMO to fill in the gap of what FFXIV doesn't give enough of, if that's what one wants.

I don't really see the need to try to turn FFXIV into WoW, no more than I'd go over to WoW asking for more story cutscenes and forced MSQs. WoW is not FFXIV any more than FFXIV is WoW. It's good that they both have their unique design directions.

[Kuukyo]

*nods*

I get that they (the person I quoted) likes PvP and that's fine... but if they like/want PvP, they should try WoW. I bet they'd love it over there if that's what they are seeking.

Thankfully FFXIV is a game that works very well when playing two MMOs, you can put in 5-10 hours a week and still get plenty done in it which leaves you more than enough time to get another MMO to fill in the gap of what FFXIV doesn't give enough of, if that's what one wants.

I don't really see the need to try to turn FFXIV into WoW, no more than I'd go over to WoW asking for more story cutscenes and forced MSQs. WoW is not FFXIV any more than FFXIV is WoW. It's good that they both have their unique design directions.

I came to MMORPGs after spending my 5 years playing competitive games like DotA, League of Legends, Counter Strike: Global Offensive and I definitely love these games, but not the community because people hate each other so much they have to trash talk each other and sometimes people even do things that is very offensive to others without regards. First few days I learned to play Counter Strike and I was not good because I was learning the game, and the team just straight up kick me and told me before kicking to stop playing like shit and go kys in voice chats.

What great communities they are when competitive element exists.

[NessaWyvern]

The lack of PvP is a huge part of what makes FFXIV great.

PvP breeds all kinds of terrible behavior, just look at WoW's general community. WoW is a game built around PvP, and tries to get its playerbase to split into two factions, and tries its hardest to get them to hate each other, and of course, it works really well. WoW is very toxic and there is actual player hate towards players of opposite faction. I mean, there was that Blizzcon where a person wearing Alliance colors was physically assaulted by a person (or was it multiple people, I forget) wearing Horde colors.

When you have people physically assaulting each other IRL because of something stupid like an imaginary faction in-game, you've crossed the line.

I'd rather not have more PvP here in FFXIV. The fact it's way off to the side and few people care about it is a good thing.

*nods*

I get that they (the person I quoted) likes PvP and that's fine... but if they like/want PvP, they should try WoW. I bet they'd love it over there if that's what they are seeking.

I have played WoW for a few years, both PvP and PvE, and I have played FFXIV PvP and PvE. The PvP IS fun in WoW, but the PvE in FF14 is more fun than in WoW (for me at least).
I am a long-time fan of Final Fantasy, and I like almost everything FFXIV has to offer.
I like the way the world looks, I like the outfits in FFXIV, I love just about everything in the gold saucer, I love my house, and I love my fully trained companion chocobo. I love all the references from old FF games.
But sometimes, I just want to have me some good ol' PvP, and I don't want to sub to another game just to pvp in it.
FF14 PvP just doesn't scratch that itch well enough atm. It's just not good enough to scratch that itch.

I can say without a doubt, from experience that PvP in FF14 is actually a little more toxic than it is in WoW.
Here's why I think that is the case:

1. Lack of players makes wait times longer than other content. This means that when people do finally get a pop, and then they start losing, people get more frustrated. Whereas in WoW, if you lose in a battleground, no big deal, you'll get another pop quickly and can try again. FF14? Better get ready to wait for ages for another FLs, in which you'll probably lose again!

2.The 3 teams versing each other, and only one wins. People get more toxic when they are losing. With 1 team vs another team, like in WoW, you get 50% of people losing, whereas with 3 teams versing each other in FF14, you get 66% of the people losing. More players losing means more toxicity. Not only that, but one team can sabotage another team, so they both lose. That's a great way to make a match even more toxic.

3. PvP modes aren't diverse and fun enough. When people are having fun, there's less toxicity. I have seen Eureka pagos get pretty toxic, and that's because the content just isn't that fun and very repetative. Something that FF14 PvP is right now.

If PvP was better, more players would play it. Queue times would fall, people would have more fun, toxicity would decrease.
And besides, if you don't like PvP, just don't play it.
Better PvP in FF14 probably won't impact you very much.
And PvP can actually help with PvE, as PvP has improved my PvE ability. The challenge of it forced me to use keybinds, rather than clicking all my abilities with my mouse like I used to. Not only that, but it's a great way to train your reaction times.

I have seen PvE toxicity bleed into PvP when I was on Odin back in ARR though! The PvP linkshell I was in were doing friendly wolves den matches, and once a dude who did a lot of PvE, and would sell savage runs came along. He wanted to flex his muscles in PvP too. He quickly found out that PvP was a very different beast, and kept losing. He actually tried to pay them off with millions to let him win, and their honor as PvPers made them refuse his offers. He wasn't too happy about that.

Anyway, I met my husband because of FF14 PvP (back in heavensward when PvP was better), so for me, PvP has been an overwhelmingly positive experience

[Shurrikhan]

The lack of PvP is a huge part of what makes FFXIV great.

PvP breeds all kinds of terrible behavior, just look at WoW's general community. WoW is a game built around PvP, and tries to get its playerbase to split into two factions, and tries its hardest to get them to hate each other, and of course, it works really well. WoW is very toxic and there is actual player hate towards players of opposite faction. I mean, there was that Blizzcon where a person wearing Alliance colors was physically assaulted by a person (or was it multiple people, I forget) wearing Horde colors.

When you have people physically assaulting each other IRL because of something stupid like an imaginary faction in-game, you've crossed the line.

I'd rather not have more PvP here in FFXIV. The fact it's way off to the side and few people care about it is a good thing.

From even just the second line, this feels waaaaay off base. I have to wonder if you even play the game, or merely watch the most absurd clips of Blizzcon audiences. (Oh, and now with the third line I'm certain of it.)

WoW isn't built around PvP. It's built with it in mind and accounted for, rather than as a shallow afterthought as in XIV (though has become less clear or trusted with time), but the game, whether you ask a raider or a PvPer, is PvE-centric. Most players are not single-faction, and haven't been since the character creation restrictions were lifted; they have at least a couple characters on each side.

PvP has faded in popularity and usage over time. All but the initial game and the latest (8th) installment have largely been about pushing faction differences aside to face a common enemy. Mists of Panderia toyed with the idea of open warfare briefly, only to turn it almost into a satirical twist, whereby that violence begets literally spirits of violence worse than either faction and in the end, both factions unite against the horde leader, Garrosh. Battle for Azeroth has had to honestly kind of had to force, tooth-and-nail-down-throats, the idea of open warfare back into the game. The plots have been contorted, logic stretched thin or openly snapped, and the absurd lampshaded at best just to force that trend back into the game despite all content and context to the contrary and faith in the company and ratings for the game have plummeted as a result. That Blizzcon incident was development's wet dream. And it only took them three segments of verbal harassment and blatant alternative pandering to trigger it. Berate enough people at a bar, whatever their personality, and eventually yes, they may eventually act like rabid soccer fans on the night of a FIFA world cup final.

Should I say that basketball is inherently toxic because of what Lakers fans do after each loss (or win, for that matter)? Is keeping pets toxic because you can aggravate a dog to bite? This is not an issue of PvP. What you're thinking of is an issue of force-marketing a concept to which most sales candidates were already relatively disillusioned.

[KaldeaSahaline]

The lack of PvP is a huge part of what makes FFXIV great.

PvP breeds all kinds of terrible behavior, just look at WoW's general community. WoW is a game built around PvP, and tries to get its playerbase to split into two factions, and tries its hardest to get them to hate each other, and of course, it works really well. WoW is very toxic and there is actual player hate towards players of opposite faction. I mean, there was that Blizzcon where a person wearing Alliance colors was physically assaulted by a person (or was it multiple people, I forget) wearing Horde colors.

When you have people physically assaulting each other IRL because of something stupid like an imaginary faction in-game, you've crossed the line.

I'd rather not have more PvP here in FFXIV. The fact it's way off to the side and few people care about it is a good thing.

How is WoW toxic if you don't mind expounding? Clear examples/insight please.

As an avid MMO player and long time WoW player, it's not very toxic at all, unless the only thing you do is LFR, but that's a hilariously isolated content form to paint an entire playerbase with.

[Maeka]

How is WoW toxic if you don't mind expounding? Clear examples/insight please.

As an avid MMO player and long time WoW player, it's not very toxic at all, unless the only thing you do is LFR, but that's a hilariously isolated content form to paint an entire playerbase with.

Here's an example:

Just the other day, family member went to Stormwind City to do the daily Fishing/Cooking quests.

Some guy was /yelling Anti-Semitic remarks over and over and over again.

Or how about all the /spit emotes from opposite-faction players back in the day when accidental flagging was a thing, they would run around us while flagged and we'd go find a safe area to wait for the pest to go away, and they'd start spamming /spit on us because we wouldn't fight them (because yanno we're on a PvE server for a reason).

How about the plethora of times that I've seen wipes happen in LFR ToT and SoO back in MoP when I did those, there'd be a wipe and people would finger-point and argue with each other about who was to blame and then people'd start spamming DPS parses in the chat until people started leaving the raid.

yadda yadda.

EDIT: on the wiping subject.... I've seen lots and lots of wipes in XIV in 8 player content too..... rarely does anybody point fingers. Heck a lot of times nobody says anything, and sometimes people will even politely give pointers... "nobody should stand underneath meteors except for tank... lb3 the tear" etc etc. The only times I've seen toxicity is after 3 wipes then people start sounding a little annoyed.

But in WoW.... back in MoP when I used to LFR back when the rewards were worth doing LFR for, the toxicity in LFR was ridiculous. One Wipe was all it took to get people to lose their crap.

[Shurrikhan]

Here's an example:

Just the other day, family member went to Stormwind City to do the daily Fishing/Cooking quests.

Some guy was /yelling Anti-Semitic remarks over and over and over again.

Or how about all the /spit emotes from opposite-faction players back in the day when accidental flagging was a thing, they would run around us while flagged and we'd go find a safe area to wait for the pest to go away, and they'd start spamming /spit on us because we wouldn't fight them (because yanno we're on a PvE server for a reason).

How about the plethora of times that I've seen wipes happen in LFR ToT and SoO back in MoP when I did those, there'd be a wipe and people would finger-point and argue with each other about who was to blame and then people'd start spamming DPS parses in the chat until people started leaving the raid.

yadda yadda.

EDIT: on the wiping subject.... I've seen lots and lots of wipes in XIV in 8 player content too..... rarely does anybody point fingers. Heck a lot of times nobody says anything, and sometimes people will even politely give pointers... "nobody should stand underneath meteors except for tank... lb3 the tear" etc etc. The only times I've seen toxicity is after 3 wipes then people start sounding a little annoyed.

But in WoW.... back in MoP when I used to LFR back when the rewards were worth doing LFR for, the toxicity in LFR was ridiculous. One Wipe was all it took to get people to lose their crap.

Have you met XIV /shout chat?

As for PvP gank-hards, for every couple of them, there's also a guy who will use their Death Grip to pull you out of certain death, and then tank the rare for you... Likewise, I've placed my Mammoth mount over LoSed corners (as tab targeting will require line of sight) so they couldn't be clicked on, if even seen, and given how many new the strat in order to get away from corpse-campers long enough to heal and remount, I'm sure I wasn't the only guy on my side who didn't care for the few ****s among us. Not to say I didn't enjoy World PvP when its purpose was fully just that. Heck, there are few things that draw more nostalgia, especially back in Vanilla / Burning Crusade times.

Back in BC, I hadn't realized I was on a 90% Horde server til I already had a couple 60s. I just assumed the population was lower than it was. So when I went into Hellfire Penninsula, there were very few Alliance to do the group quests with. Yet there were plenty of Horde who'd duo them with me, alternating who gets the first tag. (This was a PvP server, mind you, which I joined because a friend had randomed onto it.) While I was relieved that PvP/PvE servers became an in-game choice with War Mode, despite that overwhelming Horde population I still was rarely attacked even as the naive little Alliance guy questing in the middle of 5+ Horde, so it was rarely any real problem.

[Maeka]

Have you met XIV /shout chat?

Maybe it's just Lamia, but people rarely shout.

I think I've seen toxicity, maybe once in a /say conversation in Limsa, once. But I wasn't sure if it was actually toxicity or just a couple friends jokingly talking smack.

As for PvP gank-hards, for every couple of them, there's also a guy who will use their Death Grip to pull you out of certain death, and then tank the rare for you... Likewise, I've placed my Mammoth mount over LoSed corners (as tab targeting will require line of sight) so they couldn't be clicked on, if even seen, and given how many new the strat in order to get away from corpse-campers long enough to heal and remount, I'm sure I wasn't the only guy on my side who didn't care for the few ****s among us. Not to say I didn't enjoy World PvP when its purpose was fully just that. Heck, there are few things that draw more nostalgia, especially back in Vanilla / Burning Crusade times.

I think that's kind of an exaggeration... I've not seen anywhere near that amount of friendliness compared to how many toxic players there are. I just haven't.

Back in BC, I hadn't realized I was on a 90% Horde server til I already had a couple 60s. I just assumed the population was lower than it was. So when I went into Hellfire Penninsula, there were very few Alliance to do the group quests with. Yet there were plenty of Horde who'd duo them with me, alternating who gets the first tag. (This was a PvP server, mind you, which I joined because a friend had randomed onto it.) While I was relieved that PvP/PvE servers became an in-game choice with War Mode, despite that overwhelming Horde population I still was rarely attacked even as the naive little Alliance guy questing in the middle of 5+ Horde, so it was rarely any real problem.

It does seem like the community has gotten more toxic over time? I don't recall the BC days that well. Well, yeah you know what I recall?

Before the days of Dungeon Finder.... we had to use the LFG chat channel. I recall terrible game design and me arriving at Lv70 when Black Temple was current content and being brick-walled in progression because I needed Normal Dungeons and nobody would do Normal Dungeons because everybody was on Heroics. I couldn't do Heroics.

So I was dead in the water until Wrath.

But I won't hold that against Blizz; they fixed that crap since. But yeah. I don't remember the community that far back to be honest. I do remember some toxicity starting in Wrath, but it really got worse in Cataclysm as a lot of people hated that expansion. Then as Pandaria was rather popular (despite the people whining about it) moreso than Cataclysm, in-game population shot up and more toxicity spread.... then WoD came out, I took a couple year hiatus, came back in Mid-Legion and... yuck.

General Discussion over there is just a cesspool of incessant whining, just like it is today.

People think XIV General Discussion is bad? Hooo boy. They've never seen WoW o-boards.

10000% this lol. Not only that you can go into the WoW community and see just how much they think blizzard actually cares about them even with all the new systems (that are broken or just not fun btw) that have been added. I play a shadow priest in WoW and it's a dumpster fire of a spec yet blizzard still has yet to say a single word on the spec since like early beta regardless of all the community feedback. And that's just one spec.

To say SE doesn't care is laughable. If we're saying that then no game developer cares about their playerbase just because a handful of people didn't get what they wanted or some crazy new system isn't added every new patch.

ETA: Most of this was in response to the "if SE actually cared" comment btw.

YES! I freaking HATE that.

Why oh why do they have to reinvent the wheel every stupid expansion? Arms Warrior. MoP Arms was great. WoD entirely destroyed it making it nigh unplayable. Legion was "so-so" and now BfA decided to slow it down (like they slowed everybody down).

Or, say, Ret Paladin. They can't make their mind up! We had Selfless Healer way back I think it was Cataclysm. They got rid of that and gave us Word of Glory in MoP and kept it for WoD. Then in Legion, they nerfed it heavily by giving it 2 charges and a massive cooldown, but gave us Justicar's Vengeance for our main heal.

Then BfA they go "Let's nerf JV... and hey you remember that talent you once used way back in Cataclysm? Here you go, you can use that again."

.......sigh. I got used to NOT having to stand and cast to heal and having to wait for HoPo spending before I could heal and now I gotta do that all over again for the first time in 6 years because they just can't make their minds up on what they wanna do.