The Aetherophysics of Soul Shenanigans (4.4 SPOILERS)

[Anonymoose]

Are we certain they are kills?

We are not.

I'm operating under the assumption (that sentence was rife with ifs and buts and assumptions) that the developers probably know that we the players know how awkward it would be for Gaius be walking around like, "This is my trophy. I killed this." when all he really did was beat up a meat puppet until its Ascian abandoned it for the rift. They wanted to re-introduce him as the Shadowhunter, right? If those aren't kills ... is he? Is he fluffing up his resume? Is he really just Shadowannoyer? Please Look Forward to It!

I'm thinking something more along the lines of it turning out that both Hydaelyn and Zodiark are correct, yet their servants are misinterpreting their orders. Note how Ysayle is given a vision of the truth surrounding the Dragonsong War. It lacks context, so she ends up going on a crusade that leads to innocents being killed. The Ascians have done far worse things in their time, but if they do turn out to be misinterpreting Zodiark's will due to him being sealed away then it's possible that at least one of them will agree to listen to reason.

The source and nature of the orders is a tough bridge to cross with assumptions alone. Ysayle was given no specific orders and interpreted that she received the Echo to see the vision she saw, and interpreted Hydaelyn's silence as consent that she was on the right path. According to Elidibus, the overlords are following orders from Zodiark Himself, and helping them work to satisfy the letter of those orders (while also fulfilling his own, different, but not mutually incompatible orders). If they are misled, does it not follow that Elidibus is misleading them?

By the by, what do you imagine the consequences of restoring the world and mankind to its original form entails? Your path assumes mortals may benefit, if we should just accept it.

[Theodric]

The source and nature of the orders is a tough bridge to cross with assumptions alone. Ysayle was given no specific orders and interpreted that she received the Echo to see the vision she saw, and interpreted Hydaelyn's silence as consent that she was on the right path. According to Elidibus, the overlords are following orders from Zodiark Himself, and helping them work to satisfy the letter of those orders (while also fulfilling his own, different, but not mutually incompatible orders). If they are misled, does it not follow that Elidibus is misleading them?

By the by, what do you imagine the consequences of restoring the world and mankind to its original form entails? Your path assumes mortals may benefit, if we should just accept it.

I'm operating under the assumption that because we don't know all the details, things may not be so simple as they appear. Thus far, I have not been wrong to embrace such a path - because most of the antagonists we have dealt with so far, in true 'Final Fantasy' style, have been much more complicated than many credited. Thus I am led to believe that neither Hydaelyn or Zodiark are worth following blindly. Mortals seem to be set to be condemned no matter which succeeds at reigning supreme.

I don't know how familiar other posters are with other Final Fantasy titles and I don't exactly want to spoil things too much...but it isn't unusual for the protagonists to align themselves with major antagonists for the sake of the 'greater good'. That could be the case with at least one Ascian. It remains to be seen. It might not be the case, though I don't think the possibility should be written off.

[Anonymoose]

I'm operating under the assumption that because we don't know all the details, things may not be so simple as they appear.

I agree with all of this, which I think highlights my point: can this sentiment be used as a retort whilst it makes no commitments beyond Light and Darkness "reigning supreme" is a bad idea, and "not all antagonists are evil and we might work with some." There are a hundred directions the story could take whereby this could be roughly interpreted as true, yes?

This includes my own suspicions (which are at times under the umbrella of the retorts): it's possible for the "Good versus Evil" aspect of the story to be an illusion based on incidentals without changing anything much practical consequence.

[Mieck]

We are not.

I'm operating under the assumption (that sentence was rife with ifs and buts and assumptions) that the developers probably know that we the players know how awkward it would be for Gaius be walking around like, "This is my trophy. I killed this." when all he really did was beat up a meat puppet until its Ascian abandoned it for the rift. They wanted to re-introduce him as the Shadowhunter, right? If those aren't kills ... is he? Is he fluffing up his resume? Is he really just Shadowannoyer? Please Look Forward to It!

Much as I laughed, surely Gaius must think he has done the job thoroughly? I mean, would he feasibly collect trophies if he wasn't sure? In instances where we seen Ascians / Echo-imbued dying, as you've already mentioned, we see them reappear straight away. Nabriales does. Solus does. Even Wurr does. Ascians just can't resist popping back up to say "Nuuuur, can't kill me, brah". In those circumstances, a trophy from a meat puppet would instantly be seen as worthless to Gaius, I think.


Edit: There is still plenty of uncertainty, but perhaps skewing towards, yes, these really are confirmed kills.

[LineageRazor]

Do we have reason to believe that Solus in the final cutscene actually looked like a young version of the original Solus? And not just a completely random young man that Solus happened to possess after he expired? Varis's apparent acceptance that he was his grandfather is not enough; there are many reasons why Varis would be willing to believe, aside from physical appearance.

And speaking of physical appearance, I don't think that the appearance of an Ascian when not inhabiting a host is necessarily the "true" form of that Ascian. I don't think there's anything significant about Solus still looking like the same young man who'd just been shot; he kept the same for simply as a matter of convenience. Ascians can probably choose to change the appearance of their host, but rarely bother.

One thing I've been wondering is whether an Ascian, regardless of mask color, can VOLUNTARILY leave a host once they've possessed one. If I'm not mistake, every instance where we've seen an Ascian abandon a host has involved someone beating the Ascian out of that host, most of the time lethally. Have we ever seen an Ascian just up and leave a host body, willy nilly? If they cannot, it adds a lot of weight to the decision to possess a host body, as they could be settling in for a long haul. It makes me wonder if Solus had no choice but to live out his host's long life before he was freed by death by old age...

They wanted to re-introduce him as the Shadowhunter, right? If those aren't kills ... is he? Is he fluffing up his resume? Is he really just Shadowannoyer? Please Look Forward to It!

I'm not sure I'd consider beating up red-mask hosts as fluffing. It's still pretty bad-ass. Ascians are tough customers, with powerful magic. He's still a Shadowslayer - it's just that "slaying" isn't as signficant for Ascians as it is for mortal beings. Heck, I'd be surprised if even most of the black masks he carries were permanently killed - surely many of them were able to find corpses to inhabit after Gaius cut them down. It is a bit sobering to wonder, though, how many of the red masks were inhabiting still-living hosts, ala Thancred. It's unlikely they were still living after Gaius finished with them, and even if Gaius knew he'd killed an "innocent" host, I doubt he'd lose much sleep over it. Necessary measures, and all that...