Thread: The Aetherophysics of Soul Shenanigans (4.4 SPOILERS)

Solus zos Galvus's behavior in 4.4 has caused a lot of speculation (and moreover confusion) about just how in the seventh hell soul shenanigans even work...

...Assuming, of course, the primary concerns aren't facilitating

• comprehension of a casual viewer
• character and cutscene team's job

...whilst inhibiting...

• data miners
• people who know Elidibus's 50-height Midlander is not at all compatible with Zenos's corpse unless his armor is a magitek exosuit with stilts in the damn shins...

But I digress.

So let's go over some known examples and see what we can see.

Feedback and speculation encouraged.

Known Examples of Soul Shenanigans

Lahabrea (2.00)
The Ascian overlord anchors himself to an emotionally-frail Thancred with a Crystal of Darkness, temporarily subduing his soul and wearing his usual outward appearance. In the end, we sever the connection between their souls, (fleshless) Lahabrea flees to the interdimensional rift through the Crystal of Darkness, it shatters, and he has to go get another one, presumably...?

Black-Masked Soldiers (All the Time)
Have gained immortality but (in spite of having large, purple, bipyramidal crystals similar to our Crystals of Light) do not seem capable of either escaping to the interdimensional rift or possessing living hosts. They merely transcend death and pass to a nearby corpse to rise again until such a time that they cannot do that within a given limit causes them to perish forsooth. The fact that an Ascian possessing Tristan's brother could be identified as Kahedin suggests there is no transformation.

If I had to guess, these are just Source-born mortals twisted by Darkness and granted the "Dark Echo".

Elidibus (2.1)
Comes in fleshless form to the Waking Sands, attempts to possess Minfilia, fails due to the Echo, writes it off as a Well, obviously. moment. He is not seen by Tataru, he is seen by those outside. This suggests a fleshless Ascian can be seen and unseen at will.

Wuur aka Sahagin Priest; aka Sahagin elder (2.1)
Sahagin awakened to the Echo and thus gained immortality. Attributing this transcendence to "the Emissary", Wuur would, upon the death of his mortal frame, transcend into a soul orb, dematerialize his previous body, transmigrate into the nearest living mortal, and transfigure that body into one that looked and spoke like his own. Lacking the ability to escape into the interdimensional rift, Wuur was consumed by Leviathan while a soul orb (an aetherial state).

Nabriales (2.5)
After the host is defeated, an aetherial cloud appears, out of which manifests fleshless Nabriales (like when Lahabrea was expelled from Thancred). Fleshless Nabriales looks exactly like his host, which he promptly dematerializes. Explanation not provided.

The Warriors of Darkness & Unuhalhai (3.0-3.5)
Appear to be transmigrated soul orbs manifesting in mortal form.
Capable of interacting physically and magickally with the corporeal world.
Banri Oda has declined to comment on whether they are possessing corpses (or worse, were transmigrated now-deceased living hosts).

Elidibus Possesses Zenos's Corpse (4.0+)
Elidibus possesses Zenos's coprse, taking on his appearance. Though Elidibus speaks to Varis while possessing Zenos in 4.0, the game (deceptively) displays Elidibus as a 50% height Midlander Hyur, not even close to Zenos's true proportions. A still-frame in 4.4 tries to handwave this.

Zenos Possesses a Resistance Fighter (4.3)
Status of Resistance fighter unknown. Did Zenos's soul get infused into a corpse? Did Zenos transform the corpse into himself and the game is being deceptive with character models as in the 4.0 stinger? (Notice the eye color.)

Solus zos Galvus Returns (4.4)
Outward appearance of a young Garlean man. Varis kills this host body, and fleshless Ascian Solus appears, identical in appearance, nearby. Occam's Razor suggests Solus zos Galvus at some point in his life, transcended the flesh and became an Ascian soldier, but was not anywhere near was weak as the standard black-mask. Solus would then have transmigrated into a living body which he transfigured into himself.

I can think of several alternative explanations, including but not limited to: Solus zos Galvus died long ago and was possessed and replaced by an overlord who is choosing to continue appear as him, or lived much of his life and died possessed via a Crystal of Darkness by an Ascian who is choosing to continue to appear as him, or Solus zos Galvus was a low ranking Ascian and has been promoted to Lahabrea's station, etc. "New Revelations" get thrown at us too often to be confident of anything, right now.

Suggested Layers of Soul Shenanigans

Original Soul Orb
Default immortal state of Source mortals; transcendence of the flesh.
In this form, Ascians seem to have the capacity to be deliberately seen or concealed.
In this form, Ascians generally go unnoticed by virtue of Echoless mortals being unable to fathom that they are there.

Transmigrated Soul Orb
Soul orb from another dimension.
Crosses dimensional boundary via Crystal of Light/Darkness.
Whilst dimensionally trespassing, seems to experience more limitations than Originals.

Corpse Possession
Soul orb occupies and reanimates dead host anatomy.
Does not change appearance of host anatomy.

Mortal Possession
Soul orb overpowers living host anatomy with Crystal of Darkness.
Host soul temporarily muted.
Does not change appearance of host anatomy.

Mortal Transmigration
Soul orb occupies living host anatomy.
Host soul destroyed or cast into the sea.
Host anatomy is reconfigured as desired by transmigrated soul.

Originally Posted by Rocl

I feel like we'd be remiss to ignore Elidibus' gifting of the Echo to the Sahagin Priest in 2.2.

What? He's right th—Oh.

I seem to have missed a copy-paste.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Ardox

Are you sure his Crystal of Darkness shatters?

Originally Posted by Ardox

I wonder if there's some limitation to their flesh binding.

No idea. Though Wuur hopped twice in 5 minutes right after getting the Echo, so, I wonder how severe the limitation could be, lol.

Originally Posted by Ardox

Also: why don't kill Varis and use him instead, why bother convincing him?

I was wondering that myself. Then again, while I can see where maybe an Ascian would want to be in direct control of forging a great empire from a tiny republic, running the day to day while you're trying to cause a Calamity sounds annoying.

Originally Posted by Ardox

See, here I thought he just didn't had time to act, that the primal just grab him mid air a bit like the auracite can mop up a close-by fleshless ascian.

Originally Posted by Y'shtola

The Sahagin ascended to an immortal state, but he did not possess a Crystal of Darkness through which to flee this realm. Thus was he consumed by Leviathan.

Originally Posted by Ardox

Wait what? Is there any confirmation the true Zenos is still alive? The elzen at the end of 4.3? It makes sense, but that would imply that Zenos is also an ascian, which I find a little bit tooo convenient.

We're talking all soul shenanigans, not just Ascian soul shenanigans. Take a look at what this katana-wielding Resistance member says after he kills an ally, repairs a magitek, and flies away. Sound familiar?

Originally Posted by Katana-wielding Soldier

There upon the stage I stood, prepared to take my final bow, only to find that the finale was but an intermission... Shall I use this chance to repent for my sins? Embrace goodness and mediocrity? Nay, I think not. While the one I yearn to face yet lives, the hunt must go on.

Originally Posted by Ardox

That rise the question: why the old man died in the first place? Why give up the old man's body: he was the Emperor after all? Is there a freshness limit to a corpse

There are a dozen answers for the how. Perhaps we're being led astray and it is an Ascian wearing a mockery Solus. Perhaps Solus presented himself as aging and growing sick. Perhaps this Solus is presenting himself otherwise. Perhaps Solus didn't become an Ascian until later and can choose to present himself how he wants. A lot depends on unknowns.

As for the why, the Ascian Solus claims he did whatever he was told to do by Elidibus. The death of the Emperor paved the way for the second invasion of Eorzea and the use of the Ultima weapon. If it weren't for the Warrior of Light, another Calamity would have hit already.

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

• people who know Elidibus's 50-height Midlander is not at all compatible with Zenos's corpse unless his armor is a magitek exosuit with stilts in the damn shins...

Ohhh yes. That annoys me so much. I realise that changing his model would have given the game away, but it still just doesn't make sense for internal consistency.

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Zenos Possesses a Resistance Fighter (4.3)
Status of Resistance fighter unknown. Did Zenos's soul get infused into a corpse? Did Zenos transform the corpse into himself and the game is being deceptive with character models as in the 3.0 stinger? (Notice the eye color.)

What was in the 3.0 stinger?

Anyway I think they'd simply avoid showing us his face if they were trying to be deceptive. (At least I hope they would.)

Instead it has what seems to be the very deliberate shot of Zenos's smirk on this unfamiliar face.

I used the character data to build an 'unmasked' version of him in the character creator (link). If it is his "true" appearance and not a placeholder, perhaps Zenos was able to transform the body somewhat towards his original appearance or perhaps it's just that at a character design level, they wanted him to still look somewhat like the original.

It's also possible that the face is correct but that the character is Garlean rather than Elezen.

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Solus zos Galvus Returns (4.4)
Outward appearance of a young Garlean man. Varis kills this host body, and fleshless Ascian Solus appears, identical in appearance, nearby. Occam's Razor suggests Solus zos Galvus at some point in his life, transcended the flesh and became an Ascian soldier, but was not anywhere near was weak as the standard black-mask. Solus would then have transmigrated into a living body which he transfigured into himself.

I think an equally simple possibility is that the living human Solus was possessed by the Ascian (now also calling himself Solus) early in his life, but that didn't prevent him from physically aging.

But yes, overall I think it's too early to be making any definite guesses as to what exactly happened. Just hang on and enjoy the ride.

Originally Posted by Iscah

What was in the 3.0 stinger?

A typo.

Originally Posted by Iscah

I think an equally simple possibility is that the living human Solus was possessed by the Ascian (now also calling himself Solus) early in his life, but that didn't prevent him from physically aging.

This is true; I thought I'd accounted for this possibility in the OP but it assumes he was dead before possession. This need not be true. It's equally possible he was just dark crystalled by an Ascian that is now (for some godsforsaken reason) still self-presenting as him.

"My word, this data!" (Nice write-up!) Thanks for laying out some ideas / discussion of how it (possibly) works - some circumstances like how the WoD got to the Source (and more recently, Solus' deal) confused me. Do any of you have some thoughts on how these might apply to us WoL / echo users?

Oh also, since I started with a quote from Aulus, now that soul extraction is not just a boss mechanic but a very threatening msq plot point, any thoughts on where that might fit in or work with the other kinds of 'soul shenanigans'?

Originally Posted by SynthielLyrin

Doesn't Elidibus have a line about perception being affected by expectation/foreknowledge?

Yes! At the time, it was meant as a lampshade (between 1.0 and ARR's shifting game engine and lore, the Ascian presentation just didn't mesh without assumptions like this), but now that it exists, it could conceivably be used to handwave a number of concerns. (Cheaply, but effectively.)

Originally Posted by SynthielLyrin

I think of sickness, so that also raises several questions

Assuming he didn't merely feign the illness and death on Elidibus's orders so that he could withdraw for a nap and set up the war of succession, having allowed dissent to fester and not having named a successor. It would display just how deeply he trusts, even if he dislikes, Elidibus's machinations.

Originally Posted by SynthielLyrin

So just what does Zenos have?

Just Resonance as far as I know, which led me to suspect possession of a Resistance member who died during the battle (no change in appearance of host anatomy) or, if the game is being deceptive, transmigration into and transfiguration of a living host a la Wuur.

Originally Posted by SynthielLyrin

I do not think Kahedin was possessed. Raised, yes, and there's the catch: he had far less intellect, and no personality, than any of the other cases of an Ascian pulling necromancy out of their sleeve.

You actually might be right about this, but I'd chalked it up as the second-most-likely interpretation. In the LV56 quest, Y'mhitra and Dancing Wolf theorize that Kahedin was necromantically raised as an "undead puppet". Later, in the LV60 quest, Y'mhitra gleans that the black-masks seem to fear death in certain scenarios, prompting the theory that they must possess corpses to continue existing, and must flee from one to another when their host corpse is destroyed. Depending on your game's client language, Dancing Wolf's reply is a little different, and can be closer to, "What, you mean not only can he control the dead, like Kahedin, but he can possess them!?" or a little closer to, "Aha! So he used Kahedin because he needed a body that was already dead!" I merely went with the most efficient interpretation, lol.

As pretains to your other observations:

Yes, extending the concept of the Word of the Mother before she was released as an independent entity by Hydaelyn to any other entity, in any other context would change a lot of probabilities. So far, we've only seen such an entity (a soul enmeshed with the Crystal, briefly, in close proximity, manifested as Her voice) in very specific contexts.

And, yes, the revelation that Ascians bearing Crystals of Darkness (or by extension the Warriors of Darkness, who had Crystals of Light, or Unukalhai, who might have a crystal we've never seen) could somehow use those aetherial wellsprings as a way to spontaneously generate biological host anatomy in consistency with their metal projection of themselves would change many of these probabilities, lol.

Again - logical efficiency. Sorting out what we know into what might be without assuming other, unknown mechanics are in play.

Originally Posted by Apoptomon

now that soul extraction is not just a boss mechanic but a very threatening msq plot point, any thoughts on where that might fit in or work with the other kinds of 'soul shenanigans'?

If only I knew where to put it or what the implications were! The Resonance mechanic seems to be draining formless spiritual aether and hyperfocusing it on a target while enforcing the "form" of the person in the copy-tank, wheres the boss mechanic seems to have been a forced full displacement of living body and living soul without compromising either. They may be slightly different processes for all I know.

That said, the more creative and conspiracy minded might begin to suspect that the later could perhaps be connected to The Voice... Ohohoho... /darksteelfoilhat

Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Maybe it's just me, but it feels like we're overdue an explanation for how someone becomes an Ascian in the first place.

Agreed. In the meantime, I've been suspecting that Tristan was being groomed for an eventual shift. Perhaps one starts by being granted Dark gifts and information just to see what conflict they rile up and how hungry they get for more and whether they can be pressed into directed service - and whether they don't just get ganked ten minutes later, of course. As they grow more capable, greedy for more power, more in line with the Dark, perhaps that is when they are granted more transcendent gifts. Or I'm just extrapolating baselessly in the wrong direction.

Originally Posted by Theodric

Or it could simply be that the personalities they display are wholly their own. In which case, that suggests a significant degree of free will - and one has to wonder if we could, at some point, reason with an Ascian.

If I were going to point at anything as a suggestion that the Ascians have free will, it would be their sheer audacity. Between arrogantly overlooking possibilities to recklessly endangering big-picture, long-term goals for the sake of personal advancement and prestige, it borders on outright asininity. Why would Zodiark want the dark acolytes to, if they were a rigidly controlled organization, act like Team Rocket?

Originally Posted by Iscah

Maybe he was "Solus" for so long that he started identifying with that persona. Maybe he's doing it just to mess with Varis, or as a shorthand reminder that he is, in essence, the person that Varis knew as Solus.

To be fair, if the council of fourteen is taking names from the Ivalician scions, and the Ivalician scions number only twelve, and they didn't avoid this by having Shadowhunters kills go unnamed (they look to perhaps be Loghrif and Fandaniel), then just not addressing his "true name" and just letting him pose as Solus in name and visage for now is as good as anything...though quite a tall house of cards in terms of assumptions until we get more information. It assumes everything from Overlord status to transmigrated Ascian to ... [goes crosseyed] It's not yet Occan's favorite, at any rate, imho.

Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Warriors of Light go back to the Lifestrem and are reborn like everyone else is. Only since they have the Echo, their soul can survive the Lifestream intact instead of dissipating. As it is, the WoD are specifically trying to stay in the Lifestream when they die. In fact, their initial goal was trying to get all the life on their Shard into the Lifestream so that it could eventually be reborn on another Shard after their Shard was Flooded with Light. Granted, they never had to go that far in the end, but their goal to end up in the Lifestream is something the Ascians try their best to avoid

The Warriors of Darkness were definitely out to Rejoin their world out of sentiment that, in some form, the souls of all those who died would live on. Obviously, most if not all would of course be shorn apart by the great blender that is the Lifestream and their "aetherial atoms" would end up all over the place.

But is there any cause to suspect this is not also true for those with the Echo? I'm not sure. It's always been a concern, of course. Mythology paints Echo-gifted souls as "reborn on the cusp of each Calamity", but are they mis-interpreating Hydaeyn choosing new people each cycle? Or does She keep their souls intact, wipe their memories, birth them back into the world, and activate them with the grand starshower gesture as necessary? So far there's been very little cause to suspect so. Even Bahamut - all the pieces of his old soul remanifested - wasn't Bahamut. Then again, the Warrior of Light is absolutely something else, something special; they have a "true nature" we don't yet understand, we just don't know what it is. What if we are someone special reincarnated, reactivated?

And if one could ride out the Lifestream until rebirth, would merely being eaten by Leviathan be enough to destroy Wuur? Would merely being hit by Ascalon be enough to kill Lahabrea? We're meant to assume this "brought the chaos of the Lifestream" to them in another form, much like shearing an Ascian soul apart with pure aether while bound in white auracite, but is any of this true? Is any of it not? (And does this blender have different settings? How turbulent is a river compared to the sea?)