Revelations from Patch 4.4

[Theodric]

Ascian Manipulation:

I'm actually pretty pleased with how it was handled. I've been a long time fan of Varis and have been stating that he was a wildcard from the moment he first appeared. Solus was beloved by his people yet turned out to be an Ascian leading them astray. Varis doesn't have the same amount of love or respect...but he genuinely cares for his people. His hands are simply tied by at least two different Ascians. Both of which are seemingly far more powerful and cunning than Lahabrea. Thordan actually had an easier time of it, given that he had steadfast allies at his side. Varis has...no one, to our knowledge. He was firm friends with Regula, who is now out of the picture.

One has to wonder how much Regula actually knew about the situation back in Garlemald, because his final words were that the Emperor would have need of the Warrior of Light. Granted, the Emperor may not have informed Regula of the Ascian situation...but on the other hand, if he were to confide in someone about it then it'd probably be Regula.

I also echo the interest in Zenos' mother. As it stands, I suspect she's dead - but it'd be interesting if she's still alive. I also wonder if Zenos was actually set to be a normal child before Elidibus and Solus stepped in...

The Four Lords:

It was...alright. Granted, the 4.3 fight was always going to be hard to top so I didn't expect Suzaku to be incredible. I'm a little disappointed that we knew her for all of three minutes before being thrown into what was meant to be an emotional fight. Less time spent on Soroban and Tataru and more on the actual Four Lords would have been pleasant. Byakko had a decent amount of build up and emotional weight to his story. Suzaku ended up getting a raw deal and the impact of her fight was dulled by the 'so random xD' nonsense from Soroban and Tataru. It'd be great if the fourth wall breaking commentary was confined to the Hildibrand quests where it belongs.

[Remedi]

something to point out

Solus said that he was sleeping till Lahabrea blew it, it might indicate that he came out of hiding only after the events of ARF, which would mean that the Varis we meet in the sea of clouds was the real Varis and only after that he became essentially a slave to the scheme of Solus, this would also explain the difference that can be felt and the loyalty of Regula

About the rest

I don't understand if they are implying that the burn died because of what the allagans did to send azys lla and dalamud into the sky, considering that what Solus said about it being dead because of the primals might aswell be considered false, we might say that it was allagans yet again the cause, but I might be wrong. That aside it was good to finally see that they shown us the allagans ruins, that they teased at fanfest, of azim steppe (azys, azim .....I wonder), afterall the allagans did conquer the whole world, they are bound to have ruins everywhere.
A pityt that the depletion of aether everywhere was only alluded I suppose it's reserved for the expansion or 4.5, but with the archons in their situation who knows, perhaps they are sidelining all of them by the end of 4.5 to get us to a new low for the expansion.

I think that the black rose part was just a way to confirm to us that the shadow hunter is Gaius, his speech patterns really tells us so, perhaps even Alphinaud realized. It didn't really move their plot, but it's a confirmation

[Alleo]

I have not played it myself but watches someone go through it after the burn, so here are my thoughts for

MSQ:

I am not a fan that the part with the burn and that thing was just Allagans again. Also isnt it a bit risky to activate something that is so unkown? Its not like they do know about the consequences.

About the calling: I do believe that this is Zodiac. WoD dont make much sense for me, since they never have shown such power and him going on about time really reminds me of Zodiac. I do wonder if he is truthful but right now I believe that this is just another lie. He just wants us to open the gate to make it easier and probably took out every scion that could be dangerous to the plan. Thancred with his knowledge of Garlemald would have been a great asset for the action there and Urianger and Ysthola have a great knowledge about the world and it could be that they would have found a way to reverse the action thus also taken out. Alisaie is not that dangerous in a way and he probably could not have taken our soul. It was not shown if Alphinaud got something similiar but it does not seem to be the case.

Also why did nobody really talk about the message? I know that they just have lost Thancred but not one of them thought about what that means? Seemingly its a hint that the way we want to go is wrong. But what should we do instead? We cant wait and let Garlemald destroy cities or countries for some kind of balance..and we cant take them by direct force either. And since we know that Garlemald itself is not what it truly looked like, I cant see peace as an option with this government.

The part with Ga Bu was really nice but also quite sad. It touched me more than the fall of the three scions.

Garlemald and Ascians: I am 100% not a fan of this reveal. Can we have at least one big country in this world that does something on their own? I did believe that there could be a chance that they were already influenced in the past but that it was founded by an Ascian..that kinda means that all their history and fights are based on lies. Heck this is even worse than Ishgard in that regards. (Something being done by Allagans or Ascians is really starting to become a meme..and a bit boring)

Elidibus: I still believe that he is lieing. For an emissary that wants balance its kinda strange that he suddenly takes a side and directly kills people. He even said that Varis should sent the army to Ala Mhigo and that we could be easily killed..but if we are killed wouldnt that upset the balance greatly? Also why does he never truly talk to us if balance is important for him? He never really tries to get us on his side and now even talks about killing us..

Solus: I love his characterisation. Finally an Ascian with one..He seems to have hinted that maybe even Allag was something the Ascians have planned and I fear that this was the case..interesting how he says that Varis and the Ascians still have the same end goal..but since I do believe that this would be the end of our lives I cant see this as the way to go.

Varis: Well one could feel a bit sympathy for him but I just cant. Depending on how long he knows about this, he still went through everything while knowing that the part with primals was all a lie..and if he only recently found out about this then he still acted horrible before that on his own. He seems to have doubts right now but did work together with them before. Maybe he is just getting sick of being a puppet? The bad thing for him: If the people find out that all was a lie and that he was working with them, he wont survive that. Exactly like Thordan did. He also got worse than Solus since he even forbids certain art. Kinda interesting since Solus who was an Ascian was seemingly less strict in that part. He also still says nothing about taking out the opponents thus I just cant see us working with him. In the end we still need more informations about his motivations but the scene has not raised him to a better position in my eyes.

It would not also surprise me if a lot of the rise of the empire was truly only possible thanks to Ascians. They probably knew a lot about technology thanks to their age. At least we know now that the meteor project was a genuie plan to end Eorzea and that maybe even the battle against Middy was planned since this released more primals back to the land.

Anyway the goal to unite the world and save the people from Primals is nothing but a lie. All it does exist for is to create chaos and to force calamities..I really dont like the way this went..

[ObsidianFire]

something to point out

Solus said that he was sleeping till Lahabrea blew it, it might indicate that he came out of hiding only after the events of ARF, which would mean that the Varis we meet in the sea of clouds was the real Varis and only after that he became essentially a slave to the scheme of Solus, this would also explain the difference that can be felt and the loyalty of Regula

I like this idea a lot.

When Varis found out about Solus will end up determining a lot of how I fell about Varis, I think. Because if he didn't know about Solus until after ARF... yeah, everything we see in the Sea of Clouds (and probably Regula's orders during Sephirot) is him without any pressure being put on him. Not that he can't change his mind later, but still. It would say something about what he was planning to do with the Garlean Empire before he started being manipulated.

About the rest

I don't understand if they are implying that the burn died because of what the allagans did to send azys lla and dalamud into the sky, considering that what Solus said about it being dead because of the primals might aswell be considered false, we might say that it was allagans yet again the cause, but I might be wrong. That aside it was good to finally see that they shown us the allagans ruins, that they teased at fanfest, of azim steppe (azys, azim .....I wonder), afterall the allagans did conquer the whole world, they are bound to have ruins everywhere.
A pityt that the depletion of aether everywhere was only alluded I suppose it's reserved for the expansion or 4.5, but with the archons in their situation who knows, perhaps they are sidelining all of them by the end of 4.5 to get us to a new low for the expansion.

I think that the black rose part was just a way to confirm to us that the shadow hunter is Gaius, his speech patterns really tells us so, perhaps even Alphinaud realized. It didn't really move their plot, but it's a confirmation

On the Burn

Solus saying the Burn is a result of primal summoning is a classic case of Ascian manipulation. Only it's him manipulating everyone in the Garlean Empire. As far as we can tell, there never was any primal summoning in the Burn to begin with. The Allagans purposely drained an entire area of aether to hack of pieces of it for Azys Lla. They just didn't turn off the aether drain afterwards.

[Bright-Flower]

OMEGA question.

So I liked the story, more than I initially thought I would. But I'm a bit confused by the history between Midgar and Omega.

Midgar had to flee his world and I assumed this was because of Omega.

But Omega makes it seem like it never bested Midgar?

Does Omega not count it because Midgar ran away and Omega failed to pursue him to complete the task and instead ended up with the Allagans or w/e?

[Lauront]

On the Burn...

Irrespective of its actual history, Eikons/primals are known to exert a draining effect due to the amount of aether they consume. No one now denies the need to check their summoning and it is far, far easier than ever imagined, as Ysayle, Thordan and Tsukuyomi all proved. It's unclear when Solus became possessed by an Ascian, but it is now plausible that there may have been an Ascian hand leading the Garleans into the Lake of Tears, who did not know of Midgardsormr's presence. The Ascians probably calculated that he'd react in the way he did, resulting in summoning growing into a larger threat, further bolstering the Garleans' resolution to quell it... an Eikon like Thordan could still, nonetheless, turn the world into something like the Burn.

On Varis...

It is pretty clear to me that he had taken to heart the Empire's stated objective and sought to act on it - he truly believes in it and has yet to come to terms with what "Solus" revealed. Whatever the nature of Solus, Varis sought to act on the ostensible ideals upon which he built the Empire. This is consistent throughout the story where he appears; "Solus" even remarks that he is an easy one to read, no doubt due to his direct nature. The real question is when did the Ascians begin ramping up their manipulation, and on what bases? "Solus's" tone is highly suggestive of Varis only recently having been made aware of the truth about the Empire. Like Remedi said, this new Ascian was not relevant until recently, i.e. after the events in Azys Lla - incidentally, this is also when Regula encountered us in the Warring Triad side-quests and said to the WoL that the Emperor may have need of his assistance in the future. Quite when did Varis know he was an Ascian? No clue. Could've been well before, and perhaps that's why he spat on his uncle or grandfather's coffin, thinking that'd be the end of it, without being as yet fully apprised of how much of Solus's life was spent as an Ascian. For now, we don't know and as usual, there are a great many variables.

My view on what has happened is that Elidibus was playing "good cop", even allowing Varis to pursue his Ascian brethren, and making promises to help the Empire fulfill the objective Varis had taken as his own (primal eradication), but that doubts may have begun to arise when Elidibus took on Zenos's guise. Hence, Elidibus rolled out this new guy, who eventually - and presumably, recently - fed Varis some cold truths (assuming they are, since these are Ascians), and we have the status quo, hence his bitter resentment. There's I'm curious, though, what "Solus" meant when he said Varis could accomplish a great deal to further the goal of dispatching threats to the balance, not just through the Empire but his own hand. An intriguing remark. Was he trying to tempt him to take up the Resonance? Will this new guy turn the tables on Elidibus at the first opportunity and become a villain, with Elidibus being more of an antagonist? Would be an interesting twist.

I think if someone is hellbent on seeing Varis as a villain or irredeemable, they'll do just that, just as many did with Gaius, Regula and many other characters. I disagree with this interpretation of where SE is taking the story and I am hoping SE will be putting him to more ambitious uses than that, i.e. a reluctant ally and "in" into Garlemald, maybe when he sees Alphinaud accompanied by Gaius, a man who was in a situation much like he is in now. We can but speculate given how little we know.

On the Garleans...

You have to ask, why would the Ascians specifically choose them, when they are mostly unable to wield magic, a tool Ascians utilise to great effect, as did the Allagan?

I suspect it is because they are the same people as those who left Goug, and therefore their technological prowess was known to the Ascians, making them uniquely well suited to utilising and reverse-engineering Allagan technology, and having a motive to do so, due to their aetheric deficiency. There is no inference that the Empire was solely possible due to the Ascians; only that they had used it as their project to sow chaos - if anything, they may have sped that the process up. What I think they really did was to provide the rationalisation for subjugating territories beyond Ilsabard. Garlemald already had gained the upper hand over its rivals prior to Solus turning it into an empire, and probably would've taken over Ilsabard in time - what the Ascians seem to have done is galvanised the process, sped it up and cast its gaze outwards. No timeframe has been provided, so this is ambiguous until SE clarify further.

I also believe the Ascians considered their widespread inability to wield magic a tractable problem - through the Resonance. But with the cat now out the bag, Garlemald may eventually slip from their control once the truth gets out. It is also why I do not think the Ascians have any appetite to kill Varis and risk a war of succession. This may be the role the real Zenos plays - to expose their deceit. However! The counter-maneuver proposed by Thancred is easily predictable, so I have little doubt that Elidibus will factor this in, if he's not already aware.

On the Ascians...

My pet theory now is that, as beings whose deity is not native to/embedded in this Shard, there is the possibility that the power they enjoy as servants of Zodiark is limited by the potential of their host to channel aether. That said, it would appear to me that for the Overlords, they have a great deal of control over their host's form whilst they're tethered to it. So much so that they're able to bring it back into being if it is injured, merge it into a form like the Ascian Prime (the motive being, to surpass the limitations of the host), and probably do much more than just body hop. Elidibus's comments on Zenos's "adamant" form are unlikely to relate to Zenos's strength alone - we know from the Nabriales/Moenbryda interaction that they can augment their host's strength to incredible heights. I suspect it has more to do with the raw ability to channel aether and allow them to more fully manifest their Echo and other powers. Zenos was, after all, enhanced through the Resonance, most likely an extension of Zodiark's echo. Again, the Pureblood aetheric deficiency might make possessing them less susceptible to interventions by Hydaelyn. This is why I also don't buy that "Solus" was doing anything but performing a ruse on Varis. Pretending to die by letting the host perish, knowing full well that it would not suffice to override his control or "eject" him, so he could just conjure back the body seconds later and spook the audience. The fact that the fight with Nabriales took place in the Chrysalis might be a slight wrinkle here, but it could be because he was already tethered to a host and had to act fast - additionally, I think the newer lore is overwhelmingly pointing in this direction, which would be in common with how fantasy settings tend to deal with extraplanars. We know little of the true nature of the Ascians.

On Hingashi...

Theodric's point about Val is also a good one. I had forgotten about it and it is one reason why they may have very little taste for joining anyone remotely associated with the Eorzean alliance, for now at least. I doubt it enamoured them too much towards Doma, a nation they perhaps might consider a prospective competitor for influence in the region, once it rebuilds.

Hopes for the future...

I am really looking forward to this new Ascian playing a big role and I hope that he is very prominent and theatrical in his execution, like Ardyn. The scene between him and Varis also reminded me of this scene from Batman Ninja!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSInDJ6or2o

I'm also very hyped now to see where the Scion storyline is heading, especially if this is Zodiark with whom we're communing.

[Alleo]

About the MSQ discussion

I like this idea a lot.

When Varis found out about Solus will end up determining a lot of how I fell about Varis, I think. Because if he didn't know about Solus until after ARF... yeah, everything we see in the Sea of Clouds (and probably Regula's orders during Sephirot) is him without any pressure being put on him. Not that he can't change his mind later, but still. It would say something about what he was planning to do with the Garlean Empire before he started being manipulated.

Well Solus did say that he was happy that his job was done but got called back by Elidibus because of Lahabreas mistake so I do believe that he was not there to influence Varis after Solus "death". If we count Lahas death as the mess up then he only came back into the picture after Thordans death, maybe even later than that because Elidibus still had the WoD. They were his new players to create the next calamity so I see no reason to him already calling Solus back. Thus Varis should have had at least a time where he established himself and thanks to some sources like the theater group we do know that he does censorship, something that even Solus did not do.

So I dont think that his hands were tied all the time. Heck I am not really sure if his hands are completely tied at all. Yes he is in a harder place but only because Elidbus got hands on his sons body. This is a problem for him and may be why he is displeased. We learned from Thancred that Zenos is important for him (strange how he still showed no remorse for his death) because of infighting. This way Elidibus is a bit of a threat because showing the people that his son is not truly alive anymore could lead to conflict and maybe even have the people question if Varis is also working with them. But again this only happened at the end of 4.0. Before that we have no clue if Elidibus was strongly in his politic and how much power he wielded.

Solus might have been the old emporer but he is official death. He died as an old man thus he cant just show up again. People would not trust him and should not side with him so I can only truly see him as dangerous by creating conflict inside Garlemald by helping the rebells if Varis does not do what they want. But seemingly they dont want to have fights inside Garlemald (maybe that would not give enough energy to create a calamity) and maybe thats even the reason why both Ascians controll Varis now.

We are also shown that Elidibus still does not act completely on his own will. He asked for Varis permisson to act as Zenos but Varis did not give him one. Thus he could not attack. That shows that he still has enough power left. And if his people are really that important to him, why does he do cencorship, why does he kill opponents? Why did he not stop the plan with Doma?

So as long as we dont find out that he was fighting against them the whole time I will still remain negative towards him. Because he was still the person that outright said that he wants to kill all the beast tribes and anyone that can summon primals (Which would probably be against the plan of the Ascians since primal summoning is great for their goal). He still called other savages, he still does not allow certain opinions under his rule and he still gave his okay to shot down a Garlean ship just because they were his opponents. Just because we have Ascian involvement does not suddenly mean that he was never okay with any of that. Because if he cant say or do anything about this, how should he realistically be able to work with Alphinaud for example?

Maybe his view is simply that men alone should be mighty thus he would have still conquered the lands and tried to destroy primals and is just annoyed that he has the ascian on his side or that his country just grew that fast because of them. (Heck we dont even have informations on when he learned about his grandfather. He could have known it all the time or he simply learned it after the death of his son. Or somewhere inbetween.)

Its just way to early to give him a white vest just because he might be controlled now (and it really depends if he is even that much controlled).

What we do know right now is that Garlemald only exists as a playground for the Ascians and to grow chaos and to create calamities (thus our hint about the empire itself - not the people living in it- being evil is right) and that their leader right now is influenced by them. We do not know if maybe they truly have the same goals (like Solus has hinted) or if Varis wants something completely different. All we know is that Solus was not always there, that Elidibus still asked for permission to start another attack and did not get one because of some doubts. We do not know what doubts he has. Maybe he really wants peace, maybe he just wants to rule the world without Ascians by his side or maybe he is just annoyed that Elidibus used a primal at Doma (against his wishes) and now does not want to work with them anymore. Anything else is speculation. So it would be the best to not write that others lack an understanding in seeing nuance just because they see it different. Maybe he is a good person and will work together with us, maybe not. But at least the infos we do have right now dont lean towards the first imo, and if it happens maybe more in a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of way.

Big post over. Just had this flying around my head the whole day and wanted to post it.

[Remedi]

On the Burn

Solus saying the Burn is a result of primal summoning is a classic case of Ascian manipulation. Only it's him manipulating everyone in the Garlean Empire. As far as we can tell, there never was any primal summoning in the Burn to begin with. The Allagans purposely drained an entire area of aether to hack of pieces of it for Azys Lla. They just didn't turn off the aether drain afterwards.

On this topic, there's something about 1.0

If I remember correctly there was a cutscene in 1.0, where the MC was seeing a group of garleans that were like mindcontrolling some lalafells I think and telling them to go against the eikons, maybe SE is finally using that plot point (it was during the first scenario of 1.0 btw) and implying that they were servants of Solus that were corrupting ppl to sic them in killing primals, afterall ascians have always said after each kill of a primal it is actually making hydaelyn weaker. Perhaps Solus' shadow is much deeper than we realize

Edit: FOUND IT! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps-giTboFpc From 14:20 minutes

The speech of the centurion clearly doesn't sound very garleanish to me

[Anonymoose]

On this topic, there's something about 1.0
The speech of the centurion clearly doesn't sound very garleanish to me[/hb]

If I recall correctly, he was using Gaius-approved indoctrination techniques, showing a group of children what the world could become if the primals were not stopped and riling them up to take the fight to the beast tribes. I love that speech because it totally holds up. You could rally a Garlean legion with that today and it's still true.

[AmemeAmeklin]

On Dotharli beliefs...

The Dotharl believe that if you kill yourself in the House of the Crooked Coin, you remove your soul from the reincarnation cycle. The idea that it isn't just Ascian/Echo users' souls that can float around after death and attach to a body but everyone is intriguing...but more interesting to me right now is the idea that perhaps all those Dotharli who killed themselves on the statue (who removes the bodies?!) actually had their aether integrated into it.

We already know it's possible for souls to follow others around post-demise, ex: Haurchefant and Ysayle appeared to help us save Estinien. For the Dotharl reincarnation cycle to be true, their children would have to be without a soul at conception, meaning they are all technically just empty vessels waiting around for a soul, meaning no new souls are generated. Sometimes, they say, a soul from another tribe or place is reborn as a Dotharl (to explain unfamiliar souls).

It was an interesting concept before but now I really wonder how much of it is actually true and what connections Nhaama/Azim have to the facts we currently know about gods, deities, kami, and ancient civilizations...