Pushed to quit after 1,860 days subbed

[JunseiKei]

Well I told you. It's when you first enter a housing district after it gets introduced. These days for most people it means they're lvl 15 sprouts getting a tutorial on a system they can't even interact with, and probably won't for a few weeks if not months, or maybe a year. They're not going to remember it after so much time has passed.



Lol are you serious? You really think lvl 15 players are going to google that when their main goal is usually to get xp? They don't google the housing system, they leave, finish the quest, get their xp and move on to the next quest.

Realised I misread the above.

I don't think players should be expected to go to an outside source to get information, especially when no other content in the game requires this at all.

Sure people look up savage guides, but do you have to in order to pass the content? No. The people who write the guides play in this manner among many other people who prefer to learn as they go.



But somehow SE don't trust us to sell items to our retainers properly or to throw away anything without warnings. SE don't trust us to track our currency so they tell us when we cap. SE don't trust us to repair our gear so they tell us when the durability is very low. SE do not trust us with such basic things, but they trust us with a house and everything inside?

SE is extremely inconsistent when it comes to how they think players should handle personal responsibility.

And yet I got a house patch 2.4, auto demolition got introduced in 3.1, still have a house and still avoided losing my house. A whole year of no demolition to suddenly having one and still have a house. Imagine that.

If they're level 15 and got the gil and they are suddenly dropped into a house and must maintain it or lose it, yes. Doesn't matter if their main goal is to level up. If their interest is in keeping this house, then that answer is yes.

Getting outside information on a game has been around a very long time. Yes, some people like doing things blindly (like content - I like blind content), but I'd almost say with confidence very few people play games, especially MMOs, without an outside reference on something. A lot of people look up primals, savage and even rotations for their classes. People look up little fluff things like where to get minions (because unless you know where they come from, you're probably looking up how to get one of them). People reference glamours and even a list of FFXIV housing furniture to see how they look - that's still all outside referencing. Technically, reading the patch notes is an "outside source" because it's not within the game.

Yes, we have those things because time and again people have proven to show just how utterly irresponsible they are. They weren't always there - I remember them not being there and being subsequently annoyed they suddenly started popping up. This is where I wish I had that one person's signature I've seen where it says "WoW expects competence. SE (or was it FFXIV) is pleasantly surprised by it." Pretty aptly sums up the two communities, it seems.

To sum up what I'm trying to say:
Add in pop-ups that constantly remind players auto demolition is a thing once they have a house. If there's an option to disable it, people will. Then they'll still come back and cry how they lost their houses. (Personal responsibility!)

[ko_]

There is no reason to always be so hostile in your posts. OP was asked by the GMs to share their feelings on the forums, so here they are. Topics like these are a good way to open up conversations on the way things can be better handled in the future. Obviously there is no way to turn back time and reclaim all the lost items (which is the real kicker here, if you've been reading the posts by OP), but it can hopefully bring some good for the progression of the game and how they handle things moving forward.

O.o I didn't know I was being hostle.. if I'm coming off that way I'm sorry. I understand a GM asked him to share this story.. but that doesn't mean I should accept it or baby him for his lack of care. My only point is he did it to himself, SE had no part in what happened to him. SE didn't take his house away while he was using it, they didn't prematurely delete his items either. OP didn't look into what it took to own a house and because of that choose to not seek out things for what he had no understanding of. And that comes at a cost. So if he wants to quit that's on him. But that's noway in any form SE's fault. this whole thing was due to user error and lack of care. Maybe now he'll understand and take better care of what he gets cause 80 plus days of not looking or checkingg on anything is on him. If I know I got items somewhere that I haven't looked at in a while I check on them. I make sure everything ok like I'm sure alot of people do. If you can't take care of your own stuff then that's noone's fault but your own. Not trying to be hostle but that's legit what happened.

[Kirsten_Rev]

Let me get this straight, the timer on the house is 45days? Then the amount of time the items are stored with an npc is 35days?
45+35=80, so 80+ days of not caring about this feature would result in this, or am I wrong here?

But let us say these 80+ days are the right amount of time not caring about this feature it brings me to this.
Seeing as how housing is a limited resource in this game, is it not better to let those who will use it partake in it rather then someone who does not bother with it for more then 80 days? The best solution would of course be for SE to find a way in which housing was not limited, or at least store the items after a demolition for an unlimited amount of time. But still, a feature your not using for more then 80 days is a feature I find it hard to believe you would miss.

I think most people at this point recognize the need for auto-demolition. Some of us certainly fault SE for the crappy design decisions that led to this need - it's still stunning to me that they'd build a system their servers are incapable of fully supporting roughly four years later - but that's a separate conversation.

The big issue at this point, the focus of this thread, is how the game (poorly) notifies you of (a) a pending demolition, and (b) the complete loss of all furniture. There is no pop-up. There's no timer visible from any standard window; you have to go digging into a sub-tab. The timer isn't even consistently visible, so someone digging in the sub-tab might not know they can even check it there. The email notifications aren't very far in advance, and are unreliable given the nature of spam filters / custom filters / sporadic email checking habits. It's very half-arsed, and there's no reason for it to be.

It saddens me that this isn't something everyone can agree on. I can understand disagreements over demolition in general, bit this? It's arguable that this is the least visible notification system in all of FFXIV. We have HUD elements for directing us to story quests and job quests; we've got pointers on maps directing us to quest objectives; we've got pop-up windows highlighting Achievements we're close to getting; we've got a series of three different messages for buying gear from an NPC that you cannot currently equip. And we've got a buried, sporadically visible timer for the demolition of what, for many, is their most treasured in-game possession. I'm honestly curious, how on earth does anyone justify defending this? Regardless of whether or not the OP (or others) could have solved the issue themselves, how is such an atrocious notification system acceptable in a game that does so much to protect people in literally every other way?

[Kirsten_Rev]

This is all on him and blaming SE for OP's mistake is wrong.

I find it interesting that you view this as an issue of blame. I don't think it is - it's an issue of incompetence. SE has unnecessarily created a scenario in which people who do not engage with FFXIV to the level of a Google search, are prone to losing their housing. In a game where, as I outlined above, literally everything else provides more in-game feedback to the player. Assigning blame doesn't fix anything; calling for a better design, one that is more consistent with the rest of FFXIV, might. And regardless, again, I point out: this cost someone their house. They're likely an individual who won't return to FFXIV, which harms SE's bottom line. It's not a situation they should be comfortable with.

I also agree with Skivvy that you're coming across as hostile. Equating better in-game feedback with 'babying' someone is loaded language; how else is anyone to interpret it? If you were making an argument that you think SE's development time would be better-spent elsewhere, or simply saying that you think SE's measures are sufficient, that'd be one thing - but you're not. You're suggesting that everyone disagreeing with you and calling for better-designed systems is seeking to be babied. Such an approach is unproductive at best, and I'd find it quite rude if I was the OP.

Finally, from a values perspective, I really can't get behind the idea that people should live life assuming they have to fully research everything they do. It results in a defensive view of the world, and I just don't see where that improves anything for anyone. In other words, while you can argue we've all the information we need, my argument is that it wouldn't hurt anyone to provide more - and that it would help people, too. Why not jump on a decision that has only upside to it?

Add in pop-ups that constantly remind players auto demolition is a thing once they have a house. If there's an option to disable it, people will. Then they'll still come back and cry how they lost their houses. (Personal responsibility!)

May I ask how the 'personal responsibility' statement helps anyone, either?

I mean, let's expand to IRL for a moment. Personal responsibility can arguably be used to blame anyone for the situation they find themselves in. Got your identity stolen? You should have cross-shredded every document, avoided the banking system, and dealt in cash only. Got robbed? Why were you out at night / out alone / not carrying a loaded firearm for just that situation? And so on, and so forth.

Regardless of whether or not one supports these statements, I have to ask: how does it help anything? The OP isn't going to read your post and say 'gee, you're right, I guess I'll keep playing and do better next time' - they're going to quit. An individual who has their identity stolen wouldn't thank their bank if they received a short letter suggesting they shred documents next time - they're going to demand assistance, and switch to a different bank providing it as soon as they can. An individual who gets robbed isn't going to gamely nod and avoid going out at night - they're going to demand the thief be caught, and more police patrols.

In other words, saying 'personal responsibility' might make you as an observer feel good - it might grant feelings of superiority, for example - but it does nothing to really help the victim, nor does it influence their response, nor does it ultimately help SE in this case retain the individual as a customer. It's unproductive at best, and inflammatory at worst. So why bother with the statement?

[Penthea]

And yet I got a house patch 2.4, auto demolition got introduced in 3.1, still have a house and still avoided losing my house. A whole year of no demolition to suddenly having one and still have a house. Imagine that.

Oh look it's the good old "if I can do it why can't anyone else?" argument again. Can you imagine if this was everyone's attitude towards everything? There would be no guides on anything for the game if that was the case.

To sum up what I'm trying to say:
Add in pop-ups that constantly remind players auto demolition is a thing once they have a house. If there's an option to disable it, people will. Then they'll still come back and cry how they lost their houses. (Personal responsibility!)

But you don't think it's the responsibility of SE to be clear about how the system works? No? You instead prefer it to be badly presented to the point of it appearing to be intentionally misleading? You have strange taste.

And you don't find it strange that SE warn us in game about trivial things but not about major mechanics that automatically destroy our stuff? Hmm okay. I sure hope you don't work in ui design.

I'm honestly curious, how on earth does anyone justify defending this? Regardless of whether or not the OP (or others) could have solved the issue themselves, how is such an atrocious notification system acceptable in a game that does so much to protect people in literally every other way?

The cynical side of me thinks it's either people who are bitter that they still don't have a house, or they love elevating themselves by saying buzzwords like "personal responsibility" and "babying".

[hydralus]

I am both for adding an in-game popup/reminder, and also for checking your e-mails more than once a week.

[Beckett]

Square-Enix: "We will never, ever shoot you!"
Square-Enix a year later: "We'll shoot you if you don't tell us not to...
BANG!
OP: "What the hell, SE?! You said you'd never shoot me!"
Other players: "If OP was really invested in not getting shot, they would have told SE not to shoot them!"

[MomomiMomi]

The cynical side of me thinks it's either people who are bitter that they still don't have a house, or they love elevating themselves by saying buzzwords like "personal responsibility" and "babying".

As someone who lost their own houses (3 mansions) and very much dislikes the housing system, I actually agree with them. The ignorance was their own fault.

[Nane-chan]

I knew a bunch of people who went through the same mess. They were told to come here to convey their feelings, too, but not one of them got their stuff back. What bothers me is that when this kind of thing happens, more often than not, it's because something serious happened irl. At times, I really wish SE would ditch their protocol and show more compassion.

[Lambdafish]

So after being subbed from 2.0's release, owning every collector's edition (including the original 1.0 release), with additional retainers, buying merchandise and Mogstation items, and even attending fan festivals, I'm out. I only offer that info for background, not a boast

And it is very interesting background, because if all that is true, then you can't have missed this post on the lodestone: https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...981359611110f0

This isn't something that you had to go searching for, at some point when the feature first launched, this was clearly visible on the login screen. I'd understand if you were newer to the game, and started after this post, but you said you have been playing from the beginning in what seems like a frequent manner, and even if you weren't I find it hard to believe that you didn't play on or around 3.1 patch day considering you have not ended your sub since 2.0. I also believe the in game UI notified you when you went into the housing area once the feature was implemented, further cementing the idea you not knowing is on you.

Having said that, I have also been caught out by the email screwup and lost my house because I wasn't notified, so I can sympathise slightly. But, despite me complaining too, my issue was never with the demolition feature, it was with the bug, and being unaware of the demolition, especially considering your background, is not an excuse, and the fact that you quit over it is petty and says more about you than the feature (Don't get me wrong, there are many other far more valid reasons to quit the game right now).

It's rare to find people who will argue against making something more user-friendly, especially when it will only benefit players and has no downside. But alas, here we are.

I'll give you the exact reason for that. When people complain about housing demolition, it usually isn't about the feature itself, it is usually about how they wrongfully lost their house. Now when you use a concept like wrongful, it opens a can of worms as to whether that is actually true or not. In OPs case the system is working as intended, they didn't access their house for a long time, and in their words had real life stuff going on that meant that their house was left abandoned (which SE don't want and is why the system is there in the first place).

The actual wrongful part that the OP is talking about is the loss of items and the email bug (which the OP never actually talked about, so they either didn't check their emails or we can assume they never recieved them). These we can sympathise with, and there should be an indefinate amount of time to pick up items, and perhaps there should be clearer notification (though it brings up the question of if you need clearer notification, should you really be filling a housing slot?), but when the topic is in regards to OP being wronged by SE, and how we should feel sorry that they were forced to quit the game after 1860 days subbed, of course there is going to be a debate, your comment almost seems silly questioning the idea.