The Road to 5.0

[LineageRazor]

Then the question is, who are truly evil in your eyes?

Not to speak for Cilia, but in my mind the question of who is genuinely evil comes down to the personal motivations for their actions. If you're doing evil things for selfless reasons (save the world, protect a loved one, promote the growth of a nation) you are not necessarily evil, wherein if you do them for selfish reasons (you want somebody's stuff, you take joy in the suffering of others, you enjoy having power over others), you're most likely evil. There can certainly be some overlap; you can persecute a group of people because you see them as a genuine threat to your own people and ALSO enjoy watching those people suffer.

I currently see characters like Varis and Elidibus as not evil, even if their actions are evil. They're doing them for what they believe to be good ends, and I don't see them as having actual malice toward the people they harm.. Yotsuyu was definitely evil; she did evil deeds purely for personal satisfaction - and having a tragic backstory explaining why she became evil doesn't change the fact that she is. Lahabrea is likely a combo; he, like Elidibus, is working toward what he sees as a good and necessary end, but clearly enjoys lording it over the poor mortals he torments.

[Stormfur]

What if...

We got to choose?

I mean, right now we're all Yay-Hydaelyn and the Ascians/Garleans are the bad guys. But what if this next prelude opens our eyes to the news that Hydaelyn is not all she's cracked up to be, and light is just as destructive (there was something alluding to light destroying every living thing in the trailer). What if we have to choose between light killing everything, and darkness killing everything -- light's calamity is darkness' savior and vice versa.

[Cybylt]

Not to speak for Cilia, but in my mind the question of who is genuinely evil comes down to the personal motivations for their actions. If you're doing evil things for selfless reasons (save the world, protect a loved one, promote the growth of a nation) you are not necessarily evil, wherein if you do them for selfish reasons (you want somebody's stuff, you take joy in the suffering of others, you enjoy having power over others), you're most likely evil. There can certainly be some overlap; you can persecute a group of people because you see them as a genuine threat to your own people and ALSO enjoy watching those people suffer.

I currently see characters like Varis and Elidibus as not evil, even if their actions are evil. They're doing them for what they believe to be good ends, and I don't see them as having actual malice toward the people they harm.. Yotsuyu was definitely evil; she did evil deeds purely for personal satisfaction - and having a tragic backstory explaining why she became evil doesn't change the fact that she is. Lahabrea is likely a combo; he, like Elidibus, is working toward what he sees as a good and necessary end, but clearly enjoys lording it over the poor mortals he torments.

I gotta question what kind of greater good Varis is working towards that necessitates the wholesale murder and censure of any and all political opposition that gets a degree of exposure. Or a national expansion that in standard operation enslaves and attempts to erase other cultures while pilfering every natural resource they can get their hands on. What does he get out of that outside of personal profit?

With the power plays, the research into neurolinking and trapping of primals that goes way against the mission statement of the nation, resonance research, the weakening of the senate to further consolidate his own power base; I think what Varis is all about is keeping Varis on the throne, and just pays lip service to the Galvus legacy.

[ObsidianFire]

Light destroying every living thing is almost a direct quote from 3.4 about what happens with a Flood of Light. Which the Ascians wanted to happen and Hydalyen didn't want to happen. But ever since Lahabrea set Ultima off, she's had a very, very hard time marshaling enough strength to get through to the Echo-users.

One of the biggest "what-if" scenarios for FFXIV I've thought of is "What if Ultima never went off?". Everything we've seen about Hydalyen suggests that if she had the strength to talk to Us, Ysayle and the Warriors of Darkness she would have. All throughout 2.0 she's directing us to stop the people who are trying to destroy life as we know it so that Zodiark can come back. And then when the super-powerfull spell that would have killed us goes off, she saves us at great cost to herself because she loves life and can't bear us dying.

People turning out to not be who they say they are only works if that reveal has some foreshadowing. I can't think of anything Hydalyen has done that could be foreshadowing for her not being the Big Good of the FFXIV world. Her weaknesses seem to stem not from her wanting to be weak, but the machinations of the Ascians making her so weak she can't act. Given all the times she has acted (giving us crystals of light, saving us from Ultima, giving us the aetheric energy needed to expel Lahabrea from Thancred, pulling back the light from the First Shard so it isn't overrun with Light) people have been saved who otherwise would not have, I can't seen any foreshadowing for her wanting something different. When you can trace most (if not all) of the sources of Hydalyen's weaknesses back to the Ascians who want her to be weak in the first place... That feels a lot more like proper foreshadowing.

The other thing is the "springing" the surprise that Hydalyen has been bad all along goes directly against what Yoshida has said about what he thinks good and bad player speculation is. And how he wants to included hints that lead towards speculation that turns out to be correct. (Example: drawing attention to a certain person's mask because the player base will recognize it and think it is the person it really is vs not being clear enough about Zenos possessing someone random as opposed to someone who looks like Harchefaunt which causes people to incorrectly speculate it is Harchefaunt's body he is possessing). I'd think if they were going to do something this huge, we would have seen in coming long ago instead of only "seeing" it coming if we assume nearly everything in the entire game has been lying up to this point about what Hydalyen is. Except the people who are known for lying about their motives for just about everything they do...

There's also the larger context of the Final Fantasy games to consider. Ever since FFX, the plot of the single-player FF games has boiled down to humanity vs the gods. With the gods always having non-benign motives for what they do. After a while, that gets really old. And for all the FFXIV takes ideas and plots from other FF games, it usually puts it's own spin on them. Seeing it subvert the "gods do not have humanities best interests at heart" plot would be a breath of fresh air.

[Lauront]

I don't think it need be the case that she is evil or bad. Just that entities like her, or Zodiark, are sufficiently beyond the ken of mere mortals such that their true motives, nature and intentions are unfathomable, and this may mean we don't always get the full story.

I grant that the Ascians are particularly formidable rivals and mostly it requires a lot of plot armour to drive them back, so it may be taxing, but putting Hydaelyn aside, it certainly appears to be the case that the Light itself, as a form of energy, can overrun in excess.

[Alleo]

Not to speak for Cilia, but in my mind the question of who is genuinely evil comes down to the personal motivations for their actions. If you're doing evil things for selfless reasons (save the world, protect a loved one, promote the growth of a nation) you are not necessarily evil, wherein if you do them for selfish reasons (you want somebody's stuff, you take joy in the suffering of others, you enjoy having power over others), you're most likely evil. There can certainly be some overlap; you can persecute a group of people because you see them as a genuine threat to your own people and ALSO enjoy watching those people suffer.

I currently see characters like Varis and Elidibus as not evil, even if their actions are evil. They're doing them for what they believe to be good ends, and I don't see them as having actual malice toward the people they harm.. Yotsuyu was definitely evil; she did evil deeds purely for personal satisfaction - and having a tragic backstory explaining why she became evil doesn't change the fact that she is. Lahabrea is likely a combo; he, like Elidibus, is working toward what he sees as a good and necessary end, but clearly enjoys lording it over the poor mortals he torments.

But then you could have someone that only cares for example about their own family member and to help them survive they would be ready to murder a whole city/nation/world. That is imo quite selfish because they chose the life of one person to be more important than quite a lot more. I could see it more if its like "there is no other way we need to destroy this city otherwise the whole world will burn". Then maybe its a horrible act but at least with some understandable reasons. But Garlemald already started to conquer other lands before they knew of primals thus there is nothing selfless there. And even with the primal threat there are many more ways to deal with it. Like banding together with all the nations to find a solution.

@ObsidianFire: I honestly hope that this will be the case too. I am getting a bit tired of the "we need to kill god"tropes (especially if like in one certain game they still need someone else to become the new god because they would not be able to exist otherwise...its like..so you still kinda need one..)

Hydaelyn right now as done nothing bad imo. Yes some could argue that the part with Minfilia was not that great but as we were told, Miniflia still had choice in this. So having a huge turn around would just feel a bit annoying for me. I am alright if we would find out that she may have been a little guilty too about the banishment of Zodiark but right now I will 100% take the side with the crystal that wants us just to live and that will help if big help is needed and if she can help.

[Kallera]

Well, its hinted at, but if we are going into theories...suppose Hydaelyn is Zodiark, in a sort of Jekyll hyde sort of way. they used to be one being, and it took sundering reality to banish zodiark, who is to say that a world, a planet, broken in such a manner can last?


I don't think this is the case but, for all the speculation of Zodiark we have never seen him speak. perhaps being "dead", he is just as limited to exert his will.

[Cilia]

Thanks for your answer.

No problem. This is where we get into the truly moral grey zones, but for an abridged version LineageRazor's definition suffices.

The real question being asked here is what is evil? Well, in simplest terms, it's doing bad things for their own sake, or no reason beyond personal gain and/or satisfaction.

While I in no way agree with Varis' methods and cannot disagree with him more when he says we have the same goal (we DON'T - the futures we want to shape are very different), he isn't ordering the extermination of beastmen and the conquest and enslavement of every other nation on the planet for its own sake. He's doing so because he believes (rightly or wrongly) that it's the only way to prevent primals from being summoned, and those beings are known to spread death and destruction, as well as cause ecological disasters. Just one line from our brief meeting with him in the Sea of Clouds tells you everything you really need to know about his character:

"'tis my solemn charge as Emperor to bring the Eikons to heel."

Aside from displaying his overwhelming arrogance, this shows that he's not particularly happy about doing what he's doing but feels it's earnestly necessary to save the planet. I strongly disagree with his methods and, aside from the salvation of the planet, his ends, but he's not capital-E Grade-A "Evil." Very close, but no cigar.

Who is? In this game? Zenos. Zenos is straight-up pure evil. He treats others like animals, kills whoever he wants, orders his own soldiers fired upon, performs human experimentation, etc... for no reason than his own gain and entertainment. Even after enduring as a spirit possessing some Resistance member, he outright admits he wasted his life doing evil things and now has a chance at atonement... that he remorselessly throws away so he can keep having his fun hunting the Warrior of Light.

From other works of fiction... the epitome of evil would have to be Freeza from Dragon Ball. Commits genocide for money, tortures people more than fights, kills just because he wants to... and all without a shred of remorse at any point. Even after being granted another life for his participation in the Tournament of Power, he goes right back to doing what he did before he was killed.

Some people might be compelled to ask me, then, why I oppose Garlemald so vehemently if I don't think it's objectively evil. That has more to do with my own values, namely...

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." -Optimus Prime
"With great power there must also come - great responsibility!" -Spider-Man arc words

Put together, these two statements essentially define what I consider right and good. People should be free to choose their own way in life, so long as that way isn't harming others, and those with power have a responsibility to use that power for the sake of preserving liberty - their own as well as that of others. Garlemald is diametrically opposed to these two tenets - it believes others do not deserve freedom unless it is won or preserved through bloodshed, and that those with power are free do to whatever they want as long as nobody can stop them (or: "might makes right"). The why is irrelevant: at the end of the day Garlemald has shown itself to be an enemy of liberty that uses its power irresponsibly, so by my personal code it (as a unified political entity) is straight-up evil. The head honcho? Yep, evil by my values... but so long as there's that thin veneer of "for the planet's survival," no matter how close to morally black they may be one can't fairly say that Garlemald or its Emperor are objectively evil, even if they do evil things.

See? I do understand all that "nuance" (eugh I hate that word) crap... but my personal values are diametrically opposed to the world Garlemald wants to create. I don't believe Hydaelyn can only be saved by being put under the Empire's boot heel, so I will oppose that notion whenever it needs to be opposed.

[Kusanagi7]

suppose for a moment we did get a chance to talk to zodiark what would you guess he would say cuz we have only heard one side of the story that from hydaelyn honestly cant even guess.

[Enkidoh]

suppose for a moment we did get a chance to talk to zodiark what would you guess he would say cuz we have only heard one side of the story that from hydaelyn honestly cant even guess.

Presumedly, standard final boss claptrap about 'darkness being the only true constant", "all life must end" blahblahblah.... then cue final boss fight of epic proportions where he's ultimately sent either back to sleep or, hopefully, back into whatever dark void he crawled out of. (Yes I'm cynical, but then, 30 years worth of FF games has taught me not to take hammy nhilist villians seriously, especially when they're busy monloguing, and Zodiark and his Ascian ilk is probably as nhilist as they come. ).