Weekly Savage Dungeon

[Jonnycbad]

Dungeons are meant to be casual content. That's why it award players with currency to eventually purchase comparable end-game gear to players who can do savage raids and get the drops in much shorter time. Not "gud" enough for savage? Do dungeons and you too can get high-end gear, but you'll be restricted to 0-1 pieces per week. It's a trade off. That said, why make savage dungeons? Savage raids and ultimate raids were implemented to appeal to the 5% of the community that clears them, the normal raids, extreme trials, and dungeons are meant for the rest of the player base.

[TaleraRistain]

Strange, because I did it a lot and not a single vote abandon happened.

You're on Primal. I'm on Aether. We also possibly play at vastly different times. People would take one look at what we got and take the penalty. And once one person does it, others can leave without the penalty.

[whiskeybravo]

So you like vote abandons and doing normal dungeons with your static because duty findering it is a crap shoot? Because that's what happens when you make basic content markedly harder.

In my ideal scenario it would be for groups of friends who want that particular challenge, not necessarily for "casual" players to repeatedly go in and disband instances because they can't keep up. Realistically it's going to happen anyways, but I don't think that's a good reason to not explore the feasibility of adding something along those lines.

That said, why make savage dungeons? Savage raids and ultimate raids were implemented to appeal to the 5% of the community that clears them, the normal raids, extreme trials, and dungeons are meant for the rest of the player base.

Mainly just because there are a lot of other games that offer dynamic weekly challenges and it's an area that I believe could be better developed in this game to remain relevant moving forward. Like, we have weekly challenges but they are the same every week. I'm just attempting to suggest a little variety, and since there is definitely a segment of the playerbase that does want to experience some sort of savage dungeon content, it seems possible to introduce it in a way that's both easy enough for the devs to stay on top of and varied enough to not bore the player base after a couple of weeks.

Maybe it's just a bad idea, or not "in demand". And that's fine. Just something that crossed my mind and wanted to throw it out there.

[RiyahArp]

I think you missed the "progressively harder" part.

Do you remember doing that fight new and at min ilvl? Lots of wipes, lots of vote abandons, and its really only tolerable due to massive gear creep. But of course, for everyone here it was one and done, and wasn't hard at all because apparently nothing in this game should be hard for anyone.

Do you really want more of the launch shin/tsuyu/math boss/hashmal experience? Or even harder than that?

In my ideal scenario it would be for groups of friends who want that particular challenge, not necessarily for "casual" players to repeatedly go in and disband instances because they can't keep up

yeah i was responding more to bournes idea that normal stuff should be harder. As for yours, it will end up two weeks and done, probably. Without two healers or tanks what they can do is limited. With the hard content we have, they tend use randomness to make it palatable. Rath charges you randomly, the difficulty of hoh is random enemy movement and placement, etc. A single tank can't really do much; they only have so many cooldowns and no one to tank swap with. A single healer can only heal so much. It would be a lot more fixed in potential.

You're on Primal. I'm on Aether. We also possibly play at vastly different times. People would take one look at what we got and take the penalty. And once one person does it, others can leave without the penalty.

eh im on primal too, it was never one and done. The times when four people would wipe on the first tidal wave were too common to be believed. There's this sort of forum bias that everything is easy, which I don't see in game and frustrates me when we try to talk about difficulty.

[KaivaC]

Do you remember doing that fight new and at min ilvl? Lots of wipes, lots of vote abandons, and its really only tolerable due to massive gear creep. But of course, for everyone here it was one and done, and wasn't hard at all because apparently nothing in this game should be hard for anyone.

It took me 2 lockouts for me to get through Shinryu, and 1 additional run to be able to do so without being carried. Blanket assessments against the raiders here is not good.

[MomomiMomi]

Do you remember doing that fight new and at min ilvl? Lots of wipes, lots of vote abandons, and its really only tolerable due to massive gear creep. But of course, for everyone here it was one and done, and wasn't hard at all because apparently nothing in this game should be hard for anyone.

Do you really want more of the launch shin/tsuyu/math boss/hashmal experience? Or even harder than that?

Progressively harder. Those experiences are pretty fun, and they push the player to become better. Part of the reason why players struggle with them is because they are rarely challenged. You can just faceroll dungeons. There's almost never any risk, especially if you're not making large pulls, which isn't even how they're designed to be played.

The problem, from my point of view, is that they're generally afraid to make the players fail in the majority of content. And when they suddenly decide to risk making players fail, the players aren't prepared for it.

By making dungeons as easy as they are, the players are only going to be worse when it comes to harder content. Training should start at the low end.

[RiyahArp]

It took me 2 lockouts for me to get through Shinryu, and 1 additional run to be able to do so without being carried. Blanket assessments against the raiders here is not good.

i'm just being snarky about the tendency to say that everything is easy. You know it gets said on forums a lot. "Why can't people skip soar? All you have to do is a normal opener." etc.

Takeaway is just remember when you ask for hard things, they will be hard. If not for you, definitely for someone. Making them required is tricky. Making them optional is cool, but even then, savage anything a lot of people seem to struggle with.

[Dzian]

Do you think their afraid to try something like this because majority of the community is casual?

You know that everytime Yoshi uses the term casual he speaks only in terms on time and not player skill right? there's a good amount of casual players out there who would relish upping the base level of difficulty of the game. hell it might actrually feel rewarding then and keep players subscribed...

there's no satisfaction at all clearing content you would quite literally have to go out of your way to fail at.... this is why virtually everyone INCLUDING the casuals find dungeons monotonous and boring..

[Zojha]

It encourages players to get better to be able to clear it.

It doesn't. WoW already tried that. It doesn't matter if you do it progressively or not - at any difficulty point, there's someone who's gonna fall off, either because they simply hit their skill cap, or because they no longer find it fun and go play sth else. If it was any other way, we could slowly make the entire playerbase beyond Ultimate-ready just by taking perpetual baby steps upward. Good luck trying.

That said, there isn't really an issue with Savage dungeons on paper, whether they or their rewards are time gated or not. If there's an audience for the higher floors of PotD/HoH, there's also an audience for that. The question is only whether the resources required are proportional to the audience covered.

I personally certainly wouldn't participate, because I found that team jumprope isn't my thing and that is all this game is capable of in terms of difficult content. Trying to achieve it PotD style, which would be almost a necessity if you were to automate it, would drive me even further away. That is, unless it gates a reward I desperately want. Then I'd begrudgingly do it and complain on these forums every step on the way, as is custom.

[whiskeybravo]

Without two healers or tanks what they can do is limited. With the hard content we have, they tend use randomness to make it palatable. Rath charges you randomly, the difficulty of hoh is random enemy movement and placement, etc. A single tank can't really do much; they only have so many cooldowns and no one to tank swap with. A single healer can only heal so much. It would be a lot more fixed in potential.

Oh dear, an instance where tanks might actually have to use tank stance :P

But seriously, fair enough points. Damage would have to be limited to what 1 tank/1 healer can handle, and mechanics could only be so "deep". Though I do think there are a number of mechanics that would work with 4 people as they do with 8. Invisible AoEs, debuffs that need to be passed, or things that need to be stood in or interacted with by certain party members at certain times. There are a few enemies that perform telegraphed attacks via their animations instead of the usual cast bar/indicator. But I do agree, it would probably be more limited than what we see in the 8/24 man raids. Maybe..