We Really Need To Talk About The State And Path Of FFXIV

[Sigma-Astra]

Players should overlook those flaws anyway. It's a video game forum about discussing a video game. Justifying insults is pointless. Ideally no one should be trading insults here.

No, people shouldn't overlook those flaws simply because being called out on them makes you feel uncomfortable as a person. Learn to take constructive criticism against your opinions and how you present yourself and your arguments, they're not insults. And, if you're taking direct offense towards how others perceive you and labeling them as such instead of owning up to your own mistakes, then it starts to make people wonder if they're true and that you're simply in denial of having character flaws or imperfections towards your personality.

It's not the other person's job to change themselves just to change and please you. It's your own job to change oneself when you find out how you're coming across in context and that your tone is detrimental towards having any kind of healthy discussion. You don't get a free pass at being a hypocrite when talking to someone in real life, why on earth would you think it would be okay here?

Honestly, seeing as there's a daily posting limit, I'm not sure if I should be wasting them on someone that continues to shift every time their argument is debunked.

[Pinkie_Pie]

Ladies, Ladies...

Clearly, I'M the beautiful one here.

[Edax]

At least you're consistent.


From there people have seriously questioned why you felt that way, and tried to express why they feel you're opinion is wrong. You talk about gear stagnation later on like that's an issue that only affects you, which it doesn't.

I confess that I did contradict myself because the early name-calling got me emotional and my earlier arguments lost coherence because I started replying on instinct. My opinions were also not static from the start and having been shifting as my suggestions were discussed. I realized that nobody wanted BiS gear on the MB so I was convinced to abandon the idea.

You act like only you have had to deal with the issues you're addressing... in an MMO. You're far from the first, only, and last to have those issues in this game. Your statement presents an opinion that your problems are more important that the problems of others with regards to this game... even if the problems are a direct 1:1 ratio.

I apologize if I came off that way. It was not my intention to imply I was the only one. I am still somewhat new to the forums and do not know much about topics that have already been discussed and this was the first time I was voicing my complaints about the game.

You contradict yourself here. I CBA to dig much more but you'd be fine if things are harder to get without distinction towards if those items are obtained from raids or not, which is where I think? someone else even suggested. But, how would players have MORE options to progress if the means of doing so were more rare?

I wanted the crafting system to be a bit more rewarding and challenging. More options to get BiS should mean more options to progress. Just letting the crafting system have some BiS would let it compete with tome farming and raiding when it comes to giving certain players something to work for.

But the utter dismissal of content you don't like based on a notion of it, while that same notion can be applied to the thing you enjoy; that is what comes of as hypocritical.
Expecting to get the same result as someone whilst not putting in the same effort as them is hypocritical. Especially if your reasons for wanting those results can just as well be achieved with other pieces of gear. But because it's not what is considered "the best," you're upset by this: that's the sense of entitlement the people disagreeing with you, myself included, perceive.

My biggest problem with the game isn't related to gear at all, but I keep (foolishly) dragging myself into the conversation. Yes, I know the raids and roulettes are there, but they were not the reason I joined this game. If I raid, I won't have fun. If I keep my character as is, I'll get bored. I'm stagnant and I want to escape this situation in the game.

[Magic-Mal]

Sigh* here we go again. I guess I'll have a nibble at it.

^This.
This section in Mal's OP called "Gear Rewards, Progression, and Raiders" is just full of nonsense and misinformation.

-Relics are worth getting, even raiders make them, just because some people think they aren't worth it doesn't make it the raid or raider's fault

-Trial rewards are worth getting, even raiders get them

-Tome gear is worth working for, it upgrades to max item level for the tier, even raiders get tome gear, what game are you playing? It doesn't sound like it is this one?

-24 mans are not a waste of time, it is the some of the most fun experiences I've had in this game besides raiding, fun is the best reward and the gear can be used to gear alt jobs or even main if it has better substats or you are missing some pieces

-We can't have overpowered current gear.....because overpowered is broken and balance is a thing people appreciate....? If you want to game shark play a solo game

-We can have powerful PvP gear if people want it, it can just be for PVP only and glams, how is this raid or raider fault?

-We have usable materia slots in our gear, seriously are we talking about the same game here?

And this whole section was built upon a misunderstanding and jump to conclusions. The point was that we cannot have any rewards outside of glamour, meaning no gear that is used in battle, because devs have to absolutely avoid making anything remotely more powerful or equal to, raid gear IN THE CATCH-UP patch like old Diadem i210 gear. Higher stats in gear is an incentive to do certain content regardless of if they're a raider or non-raider because surprise, people just like seeing big numbers. That's why I said they're all a waste of time to me, because none of the options, not even relic can reach ilvl cap at the very least during the catch-up patches and only raid and tome can reach cap meaning there is no ways to reach perfect BiS.

Ask SE for it

Yeah I guess I have to because obviously you just want to argue for 40 more pages instead of being productive and present some ideas yourself?

More gear options from more avenues = gearing up to max quicker = clearing content easier = less need to do content to get clears or geared up = less people actively playing since they have nothing left to do = less people subbing longer = SE losing money.

Holy opinion! Did you not read my post a few pages back explaining all the different ways to make a whole bunch of varied sets without affecting raids and raid progression while giving everyone more options to make really great sets during the catch-up patches and adding GEAR incentive to ALL content?

This paragraph doesn't make any sense. If you progged savage yourself I think you would realize why this doesn't make any sense.

As a raider myself:
-I buy some crafted gear at the beginning of a tier
-I try to get the new trial primal weapon at beginning of tier and even midtier (Shinryu weapons and Tsukiyomi weapons helped people clear O4S and O8S)
-I work for my raid gear
-I work for my tome gear
-I use 24 man gear to close gaps in my gear
-I use the catch up patch upgrade items from the 24 man to close gaps in my gear

None of these things were dead on arrival for me even though I raid.

If all of this content is incentive for even someone like me who raids savage and has access to savage gear then how is it possible that casual players have no incentive to run the same content????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? The logic is non-existent.

Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed today? You want to talk about me not knowing anything? This whole piece of post is super ignorant and all you're trying to do do is split yourself from me. "Unlike you, as a raider... I know-". Well guess what? You don't know anything about me and before assuming all of that junk maybe you should've asked me first.

I am an ex-raider. I know EXACTLY how progging and EX Primals and all that stuff goes. I raided in Creator and some of Deltascape(unsubbed when I got bored). I beat/farmed every EX primal of ARR and HW on-time, and beat Susanoo and Lakshmi to prog Deltascape. All without ever getting into a static. Why? Because I wanted the stuff that is dropped IN THE RAID. I'm only not raiding now because I unsubbed because I wasn't interested and wanted a break.

So please, spare me all that "As a raider" talk. I know exactly how being a raider is and I don't need you to tell me. Raiding now is no different than before in HW. Me not liking raids has absolutely nothing to do with not being able to raid or because I don't know any better. I just don't agree with the design and I have my own opinions. Surprise! A raider doesn't actually like the raids and only does them for the gear. And I get the gear to simply feel strong. If a piece of gear from a raid doesn't appeal to me stat-wise, I just won't do that raid at all. THAT is why I want more paths to ilvl cap gear that offer more stat sets.

You lashed out on me 54 pages late just because you thought I didn't like the raid concept because I don't know as much as you and that's not cool at all. I don't have to raid and agree with you. Stop judging people, especially me.

Actually this. I think the person you're replying to either doesn't actually play the game enough to know how gearing actually works, or is being willfully obtuse.

As a Bard personally who had to wait until 4.3 before I was able to clear O8S, I went through the same phase you did, except I got my upgraded ilvl 370 tome weapon fairly early and thus had no reason to do Tsukiyomi EX (not to mention Tsuki EX bow doesn't have crit IIRC), and I skipped over the 24-man raid in terms of gearing since the chest piece from Ridorana didn't have crit on it (unlike Rabanastre). Meaning that Bards have to go from ilvl 350 (which became 360, see below) crafted chest piece to ilvl 370 diamond shirt if they wanted to maintain their critical hit rate.

At the very least, SE did introduce -upgraded- crafted armor that lets us upgrade said armor from 350 to 360 (at the cost of making them untradeable, which is going to happen anyway if you intend to actually use them), which is a plus and actually a very good idea.

The people in this thread acting like raiders don't do other content is actually pretty hilarious. This is especially considering that a good population of the raiders actively raid precisely because there's not much else to do in this game otherwise. This was one of only two reasons I decided to raid myself come Alexander Creator after not having the confidence to raid during the year prior (the other being some friends dragging me into it because they had trouble finding decent Bards in HW).

(I still run Ridorana frequently, probably more than the 'self-proclaimed casuals', just because I find 24-mans fun and hilarious. I usually run it about 3-4 times a week, and I ran Rabanastre about 10 times one week because I was literally that bored.)

You too. Thank you kindly for judging me and making it out like I'm some inexperienced person who doesn't know any better, without even thinking that maybe I just have a different opinion that has nothing to do with my skill or experience. Also I'm a Bard too.

You need to calm the heck down with the false assumptions.

[Dualgunner]

You first, hypocrite.
That's one of the smarter things you said. You shouldn't justify insulting people, you should be walking away.

Stop insulting people, geeze. You're adding nothing with this.

[Theodric]

There's really no need for this level of hostility. I don't know what's happened to the official forum lately but it used to be a lot more pleasant. The sheer amount of posters who are unable to agree to disagree and deliberately assume the very worst about the people they claim to be engaging with both on this board and the lore board is baffling.

[Pinkie_Pie]

impossible you're a lala.

The lala, with muffins

[Miste]

The point was that we cannot have any rewards outside of glamour, meaning no gear that is used in battle, because devs have to absolutely avoid making anything remotely more powerful or equal to, raid gear IN THE CATCH-UP patch like old Diadem i210 gear. Higher stats in gear is an incentive to do certain content regardless of if they're a raider or non-raider because surprise, people just like seeing big numbers. That's why I said they're all a waste of time to me, because none of the options, not even relic can reach ilvl cap at the very least during the catch-up patches and only raid and tome can reach cap meaning there is no ways to reach perfect BiS.

Tome gear upgrades to max item level for the current tier - the same item level as the gear that drops in savage. They could add maybe one more way to get some i370 gear during the catch up patch if you really wanted?? But it would still end up weekly locked in some way or time consuming to get and it won't be higher than the current tier.

It won't make much of a difference. It also won't give you BiS because if a BiS piece is in savage then you would still have to do savage for it, since not all the "new" i370 gear will have the substats properly for it to overtake the savage piece as BiS.

I mean you keep talking about incentives, but if you throw in i385 gear for example like your idea of "more powerful than raid gear stuff from other content during catch up patch" then it takes away part of the incentive to do the savage raids that people were progressing.

If you want BiS you have to do the savage fights. BiS is part of the incentive to dip into all content since you need to get a mixture of gear to get it.

You can get your big numbers by getting the max item level gear SE gives you via tomes and upgrades. If you make use of The Hunts you can even bypass weekly limits to upgrade your gear to max for the tier. You can be full i370 without raiding which is the max for this tier minus i375 weapon. Two ways to get to max gear for a tier are not enough? I guess if you have that opinion that's fine, but I don't agree, seems fine to me.

instead of being productive and present some ideas yourself?

Explain to me why you think I should fix your issues for you?

Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed today? You want to talk about me not knowing anything? This whole piece of post is super ignorant and all you're trying to do do is split yourself from me. "Unlike you, as a raider... I know-". Well guess what? You don't know anything about me and before assuming all of that junk maybe you should've asked me first.

I am an ex-raider. I know EXACTLY how progging and EX Primals and all that stuff goes. I raided in Creator and some of Deltascape(unsubbed when I got bored). I beat/farmed every EX primal of ARR and HW on-time, and beat Susanoo and Lakshmi to prog Deltascape. All without ever getting into a static. Why? Because I wanted the stuff that is dropped IN THE RAID. I'm only not raiding now because I unsubbed because I wasn't interested and wanted a break.

So please, spare me all that "As a raider" talk. I know exactly how being a raider is and I don't need you to tell me. Raiding now is no different than before in HW. Me not liking raids has absolutely nothing to do with not being able to raid or because I don't know any better. I just don't agree with the design and I have my own opinions. Surprise! A raider doesn't actually like the raids and only does them for the gear. And I get the gear to simply feel strong. If a piece of gear from a raid doesn't appeal to me stat-wise, I just won't do that raid at all. THAT is why I want more paths to ilvl cap gear that offer more stat sets.

You lashed out on me 54 pages late just because you thought I didn't like the raid concept because I don't know as much as you and that's not cool at all. I don't have to raid and agree with you. Stop judging people, especially me.

I didn't assume anything. You are currently not progging or doing sigma savage and that is what I based my response off of and why I think you missed the holes in your OP's logic. It has nothing to do with if you were an Ex-raider or not, nor did I say that you have never raided. I also never claimed you can't raid or said anything at all about your skill level. You are bringing all of this into the discussion, not me.

I did not wake up on the wrong side of the bed just because I disagree with you.

I am not lashing out at you just because I disagree with you.

I am not saying you don't know as much as me, but there must be a disconnect somewhere because again there is something really off about your opinions and logic in your OP about raids and raiders which you failed to answer much of my points about.

You are taking the disagreement personally. Instead of answering my points you are just...getting defensive about things I never even said and just because I explained I was a raider to answer your entire OP section claiming things about what content raiders do or don't do.

I explained I was a raider who did these things because your OP has a section entirely directed at raids and raiders. It was relevant to the discussion because you made it so in your OP and also relevant for me to explain my experiences and how it does not match up with your issues claiming that casuals have no incentives to run all this content and for raiders it is DoA.

I am sorry if this is kind of blunt, but I am not going to avoid saying I am a raider just because that fact somehow offends you.

As a raider none of the things you claimed were DoA for raiders were DoA for me or anyone else I know that raids. I also have incentives even as someone who has access to i370 savage gear to get the gear from other avenues as well even if they are not i370.

You claim casuals have no incentives to run this content, but if even a raider like me who has access to extra i370 gear still has incentives to do this other content and get this other gear then something doesn't add up with your ideas and opinions. There is logic missing here.

Whether you raided previously or not doesn't somehow make your opinions about raids and raiders suddenly make sense. Unless you can explain the problems with your logic that I pointed out?

If you know how it is to be a raider then you would know raiders have incentive to get tome gear, so why are you claiming tome gear is not worth the work? If you know how it is to be a raider then why would you claim there is no incentive to do trials? 24 mans? Raiders do all these things to help gear themselves.

If it is incentive for raiders even though they have access to more gear than non-raiders then why are you claiming there is no incentive for casuals to run this same content? It makes no sense.

If it is just your personal opinion that there is no incentives at all to run any of this content or get any of the gear available then fine, but in your OP you wrote it in a way where you are trying to speak for entire subsets of the community and not just yourself; which is why I replied and explained the issues with what you are claiming.

You don't have to raid and you don't have to agree with me, but people are not "judging you", we may be judging your opinions and ideas, but not you as a person or your skill level, so stop trying to turn it into that.

[Magic-Mal]

Tome gear upgrades to max item level for the current tier - the same item level as the gear that drops in savage. They could add maybe one more way to get some i370 gear during the catch up patch if you really wanted?? But it would still end up weekly locked in some way or time consuming to get and it won't be higher than the current tier.

And I want to. And I'd very much like to have choices other than grind tomes or do content I don't even have fun with for gear with stats I don't even desire either.

It won't make much of a difference. It also won't give you BiS because if a BiS piece is in savage then you would still have to do savage for it, since not all the "new" i370 gear will have the substats properly for it to overtake the savage piece as BiS.

Uh.. yes it would? To many people who want to feel stronger. You cannot be i370 with every piece having Critical Hit/Direct Hit secondary because raid and tome don't supply that and we have no options at all to achieve it. If you want to ask me how can I decide what's worthless or not, I can ask how can you tell me how much having certain secondaries mean to me? Also I thought I made it clear that if a raid has a certain piece with certain stats I want, I'll just go do it.

I mean you keep talking about incentives, but if you throw in i385 gear for example like your idea of "more powerful than raid gear stuff from other content during catch up patch" then it takes away part of the incentive to do the savage raids that people were progressing.

Maybe the devs could do something else other than repeat the same raid cycle for the 9th time(literally) and have the raids come later.

If you want BiS you have to do the savage fights. BiS is part of the incentive to dip into all content since you need to get a mixture of gear to get it.

Again.. I made myself quite clear that if there was something I wanted from a raid I'd just do it. As I did in the past. The point is to have BiS at i370 not have i360 and i350 in random spots. The only reason why BiS is so limited is because we have so limited items. I'm not sure how you don't understand that. BiS is also defined differently by different people. Some people probably stack Crit>Direct>SS or Crit>SS>Direct whichever. Savage isn't even hard enough for computerized BiS to matter anyway. This section is literally what I suggested in the post I made earlier which I'm still not sure you read. Have a catch up patch where there are more i370 options and all of a sudden you have more ways to make BETTER BiS.

You can get your big numbers by getting the max item level gear SE gives you via tomes and upgrades. If you make use of The Hunts you can even bypass weekly limits to upgrade your gear to max for the tier. You can be full i370 without raiding which is the max for this tier minus i375 weapon. Two ways to get to max gear for a tier are not enough? I guess if you have that opinion that's fine, but I don't agree, seems fine to me.

Nope it's not to me. I want more options and if we were to have them, it's not like you would mind it right? Your fine with tomes and raid BiS set-up. This whole fiasco could've been settled with "I don't agree" instead of paragraphs.

Explain to me why you think I should fix your issues for you?

Never said I thought you should :p. Only that you aren't adding anything besides arguing about a single piece of my sectioned OP. And since you seem to think everything is okay, you could've even made a simple "I think the raid scene is fine" back on the first few pages and go. If I recall correctly this is the first time you actually said something along "I think it's all fine already" within all these pages. Could've said so earlier.

I didn't assume anything. You are currently not progging or doing sigma savage and that is what I based my response off of and why I think you missed the holes in your OP's logic. It has nothing to do with if you were an Ex-raider or not, nor did I say that you have never raided. I also never claimed you can't raid or said anything at all about your skill level. You are bringing all of this into the discussion, not me.

The moment you started talking to me with "As a raider myself" I took that as you already making the judgement that I'm not a raider so I don't know what I'm talking about. And you said it at least twice to clarify that you're a raider.

I did not wake up on the wrong side of the bed just because I disagree with you.

I am not lashing out at you just because I disagree with you.

I don't know Miste, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't confused as to a reason why your post even appeared at such a time. 51 pages after my OP was posted while you have been here for dozens of pages already. It looked like a sudden lash-out.

I am not saying you don't know as much as me, but there must be a disconnect somewhere because again there is something really off about your opinions and logic in your OP about raids and raiders which you failed to answer much of my points about.

There is no disconnect. I just don't agree with you and your vision of the raid scene. I don't see the logic in why you don't want more options for whatever reason, or anyone else to have more options. Is that a disconnect in you?

You are taking the disagreement personally. Instead of answering my points you are just...getting defensive about things I never even said and just because I explained I was a raider to answer your entire OP section claiming things about what content raiders do or don't do.

Ummmmm you quite randomly(in my eyes) made a really long post in defense of.. yourself(?) clearly because you were offended by my post. I merely responded in defense to you being very defensive at first. You're the one who made the post directed to me after all. And judging by the bold letters, the "do you even play this game?" and the 10 question marks at the bottom, observation tells me you were unsettled by my post, a single section I might add, as I don't normally see you post on the forum in the way you just did there. So pardon me for not understanding what even happened.

I explained I was a raider who did these things because your OP has a section entirely directed at raids and raiders. It was relevant to the discussion because you made it so in your OP and also relevant for me to explain my experiences and how it does not match up with your issues claiming that casuals have no incentives to run all this content and for raiders it is DoA.

Okay, raider to raider then. I don't like that the only content for me to do to get gear that's ilvl cap is a raid or a tome. Because I, as a raider, won't feel like doing the raid at all if the gear from it isn't to my personal liking. Also, as a raider without a static, I get sick of grinding out 8 weeks to get 2 measly pieces of gear because RNG decided I wouldn't get anything for my time, effort, and skill I put in the actual duty. *I* would like to have the perfect stats I dream of and if that includes raids and random pieces from 4 different i370 sets then so be it. That would be my choice...something that this game sorely lacks.

And lastly, as a raider I personally feel like 24mans are a waste of time outside of the single token a week(Temporary because eventually all tome pieces will be upgraded) because the gear from it, regardless of stats, is already lower ilvl with no way to upgrade it. And I have to deal with the RNG of the piece I want dropping, then the annoying winning rolls over me because I never win. If I could upgrade it I'd actually do it. Do you understand my motives yet? And EX primals in catch-up patches are worthless because if I already have a tome weapon or heaven forbid, savage weapon why would I even care? Unless by the grace of goodness the tome weapon had crappy stats already in which case I'd stick with he first primal weapon. Of course, maybe I'd actually do the late EX primals if they gave something useful like jewelry?.

I am sorry if this is kind of blunt, but I am not going to avoid saying I am a raider just because that fact somehow offends you.

As a raider none of the things you claimed were DoA for raiders were DoA for me or anyone else I know that raids. I also have incentives even as someone who has access to i370 savage gear to get the gear from other avenues as well even if they are not i370.

So are you saying you want to purposely try to offend me? I feel so pretty and loved right now.

You claim casuals have no incentives to run this content, but if even a raider like me who has access to extra i370 gear still has incentives to do this other content and get this other gear then something doesn't add up with your ideas and opinions. There is logic missing here.

Or maybe you have different motives? Desires? I don't feel like gearing my DRG. Maybe you would. That's your desire. There's no missing logic.

Whether you raided previously or not doesn't somehow make your opinions about raids and raiders suddenly make sense. Unless you can explain the problems with your logic that I pointed out?

Are you the voice of raiders or am I the voice of raiders?

If you know how it is to be a raider then you would know raiders have incentive to get tome gear, so why are you claiming tome gear is not worth the work? If you know how it is to be a raider then why would you claim there is no incentive to do trials? 24 mans? Raiders do all these things to help gear themselves.

If it is incentive for raiders even though they have access to more gear than non-raiders then why are you claiming there is no incentive for casuals to run this same content? It makes no sense.

Already answered this. It makes perfect sense. I simply don't share your vision. And some casual players like feeling powerful or having a great set-up just because they want it. Maybe they think seeing 3,000 skill speed is cool. That should be their choice. Raiders don't need i370 to beat savage so why do they need i370 right?(excluding those who do Ultimate)

If it is just your personal opinion that there is no incentives at all to run any of this content or get any of the gear available then fine, but in your OP you wrote it in a way where you are trying to speak for entire subsets of the community and not just yourself; which is why I replied and explained the issues with what you are claiming.

It's been awhile, did I forget to add "In my opinion" at the section? I'm too tired, typing this on a phone.

You don't have to raid and you don't have to agree with me, but people are not "judging you", we may be judging your opinions and ideas, but not you as a person or your skill level, so stop trying to turn it into that.

If you can stop reminding me that you're a raider sure, I'll stop. I never wanted to derail my thread further and am sick of the raider conversation. Also that other guy definitely spoke poorly of me.

Can we not do this anymore? This thing was like 40,000 characters.

[Kuroka]

So we are at the Point were we dont even get a f#### trainler at the live letter huh? nice...