The Road to 5.0

[Ramesses]

There are so many excellent comments, speculations and decryptions stated in this thread that I'm just going to list mine below in the order in which I've jotted them on my notes. This will be lengthy... but I'm bored and all my meetings today got cancelled, so plenty time on my hands for the rest of the day. Thus, I will punctuate my post below with a few images so as to make reading my banterings much easier on the eyes. Also, if you are reading this thread and got to this page (page 6) then you already know there are spoilers abound and it is assumed that you have finished the MSQ up to patch 4.3.


Full disclosure so I can side-step the morality debate related to the Garleans (since it is indeed somewhat off-topic):
I am a fan of what the Garlean Empire could be... which is one of the core reasons I've always been very interested in their politics, culture and history. There have been a lot of brilliant debates on this thread as to the validity of their actions for global conquest, the morality of their deeds and etc etc etc. However, it must be said that I still do not believe all of them to be mindless territory grabbers... and in all fairness to them, they did have their own era of extreme suffering as well, in the blistering cold, no less. Today, they have an empire that apparently covers everything the cloud touches in that map --- by the way, anyone really notice the mass of clusters floating above the Garlean capital on the map? See image below... somehow I reckon this as well will be a critical location when 5.0 arrives. Reminds me of the Zilart island in FFXI... we used to refer to it as "sky").

In the end, I can respect the views that they have destroyed lives and upset the social balance of millions of lives on the planet (for instance, I'm still hoping the Devs will continue the questline for Drest so I can help him get back home)... but there are always two sides to a coin, three if we go by the words of the great Terry Pratchett (the edge is the third side). More on this another time but for now... lets just blame it all on Ascian meddling and get back on the main topic.



First off Elidibus and his part on the path to 5.0 MSQ:
He now continues to strike me as being even more sinister than initially imagined. He keeps humming this tune about working towards the salvation of this star (or "dimension") and our part in establishing a vision for a wholesome balance across the Final Fantasy "universe". However, he doesn't really furnish us with clear concrete evidence of what we need to do to achieve this so called "salvation".

What really, really, really worries me is the thought that this chap might actually be "developing" the WoL to become the corporeal vessel for Zordiark. Think about it... Hydaelyn and Zordiark are apparent mirrors of each other, the shadow that accurately reflects the light. Now, remember how Minifilia was able "ascend" to become "one" with Hydaelyn? The specifics are a little more complicated than that but the core matter remains that Milifinia arguably "transcended" to become a part of Hydaelyn. Is this what that creepy punk Elidibus is planning for us?



Not to mention, in the last cutscene for 4.3, Varis reminds him that the eikons cannot be tolerated but he slyly assures the Emperor that it was necessary during that battle with Tsuyu... but wait, didn't Lahabrea consistently babble on and on that the eikons were not to be tolerated under any circumstances? And yet, the Empire had her as an ace up their sleeve all this time.

Interesting.

In addition, his manipulations and "mentorship" with Unukalhai gives me a lot of pause for thought because the more I research his history with the kid, the more I'm convinced he's just using him. Thankfully, I firmly believe the kid is nothing like him and has seemingly now begun to further his own agenda that will likely help the WoL in the future. Nonetheless, lets still keep a weary eye on him... there was a time (when his face was initially revealed), that I even speculated him to be young Solus from the future-past-whatever under the guidance of Elidibus ---dunno, must've been the hair colour. Eventually, we hear his story and how wrong i was... but yeah, I still believe this young man still has his part to play.



That said, Elidibus has obviously been tinkering in world politics for far longer than we imagine... I personally suspect he may have even had involvements with the rise and eventual demise of the Allagan Empire and then quietly relegated himself to the sidelines for eons until now. He has likely upped his participation a whole notch once the Seventh Astral began for mysterious reasons... and my gut feeling tells me he had a lot of dealings with Solus in the past.



Emperor Solus and the far reaching effects of his empire on the path to 5.0 MSQ
This is one Garlean character I have been eagerly awaiting to delve into. Young, brilliant, charismatic 24 year old military genius becomes a Legatus and nobody bats an eyelid? How did he do it when he only joined the military at age sixteen? Sure, he had the distinguished lineage, the necessary family name and intellect but how did he get his hands on Magitek technology in the first place? There has to be a lot more to their extremely rapid technological advancement than just having Cid's father Midas at his side. Solus must have been one heck of a guy, with a heck of team around him, and a heck of Cerulean resources at his disposal... and I will say it again, were Team Solus made up of some Allagans? Ascians? Or someone else?

Either way, he had some serious help from them, and there was something very life-changing that he saw at the Burn which wholly convinced him to declare war on eikons with such vigour. I want to know that story because somehow it ties into why Shadowhunter elected to make that place his apparent base of operations (a brilliant tactical location to hide since it's apparently devoid of any aether or life). This information will also be key on our journey to Garlemald and why he favoured Gaius and Nael so much in the past. Yes, yes, yes, Nael was the son of one of the founding fathers and Gaius always distinguished himself with his keen loyalty (killing nine aspirants and all that)...

...However, I have mentioned a while back on these forums, there had to have been something much more as to why those two were called the Raven and the Wolf. Perhaps it's just me but I keep getting the sense that Solus is like Odin (see image below, I think I posted this a while back)



Which brings me to...

Gaius and his part to play on our path to 5.0:
I cannot stress enough how excited I am about this guy's re-appearance. He will serve as our focal point for our Echo abilities to view a LOT about the past histories of the Empire, Solus' rise to power, the other Legati, the real agenda of the Ascians, the Frumentarii and so much more. Ohhhh one more thing... now that we know what he looks like, Nero's resemblance to him is... compelling... unless, maybe, I took this artwork I found (a while back) too much to heart-- the artist had made Gaius a blondie like Nero.



Here's one other mystery I really want to know about Gaius... is there something unusual he knows about the Twelve and the Ascians? Does he see the WoL, the WoD and other Echo users as unfortunate proxies in their "war"? As such, is he planning to give Man back the power to dictate their own actions within this universe (similar to how Vayne Solidor carried out his plans in FFXII?). Back then he kept emphasizing the notion of the strong ruler, and saying to the WoL some lines along the themes of:

Only a man of power can rightly steer civilization
Why do you grovel at the Twelve's feet?
Such power as yours befits a ruler!

Does he still think like that? Will patch 4.4 or the journey to 5.0 expatiate on his new ideals? Plus, I seriously want to know how epic he was in his younger years and how he came to establish himself as Solus' favourite... afterall, he was so held in high esteem by the Emperor that he was given his own brand spanking new legion, the XIVth. In ancient Rome, one had to be a member of the Senate, or from a super influential wealthy family to attain the rank of Legatus; so either Gaius was related to Solus (I'm still hoping for that)... or he had performed such incredible feats for King and country. But more on that another time.

More importantly, I keep sensing that it is through Gaius and his recent (assassinations?) of a few Ascians that we will get to finally understand what the Heart of Sabik really means. When we first fought Gaius and Lahabrea at the Praetorium in 2.0, the Ascian mentions it as being so powerful that even the ancient Allagans didn't decode all its secrets. This still intrigues me...where is the Heart of Sabik now? It stands to reason that it if is even a fraction as powerful as Lahabrea says it is, then it did NOT get destroyed when we defeated Ultima.

So is it in Gaius hands now? Does it have anything to do with abilities to transcend?



Aulus and the ramifications of his work on the path to 5.0 MSQ:

Yes, the mad scientist is apparently dead but this talk of "transcendence" had me remembering our battle with him: anyone remember when he would do the "soul extraction" ability during the fight and we had to stagger back to our bodies? Yeah... I'm still wondering about that and I know we haven't seen the last of this move. Plus, Zenos coins it perfectly when he repeatedly asks us during our battle with him (I particularly like the specific intonation in his voice when he says it)

Have you the strength?
The power to transcend!

Which then brings us to these lines extracted from The Wandering Mistrel's poem during this Rising event...

Upon your breast a crimson crest
Shine Light down from on high
O hero of rebirth transcending

These three lines got me thinking that the WoL will face a mortal wound to the chest, will be "revived" (possibly by Hydaelyn or Garlean Technology?) and then transcend into a stronger being... almost divine like?

Page 15 of my much beloved Encyclopedia Eorzea Volume One establishes that the Echo grants the power to transcend Words, Time and Worlds. The third type of transcendence, "Worlds", is what I think we will really delve into as we begin our path to 5.0... and the Ascians will either be terrified of our ability to use it or will try to use it against us to further their weird ambitions. In the end, I also want to believe this ability will also grant us the avenue to go back in time to the Allagan Empire (to fix things?)... yeah, that could be the foundations of the 6.0 expansion.

Yes indeed... much of this will be fascinating to see unfold.

[Dualgunner]

What really, really, really worries me is the thought that this chap might actually be "developing" the WoL to become the corporeal vessel for Zordiark. Think about it... Hydaelyn and Zordiark are apparent mirrors of each other, the shadow that accurately reflects the light. Now, remember how Minifilia was able "ascend" to become "one" with Hydaelyn? The specifics are a little more complicated than that but the core matter remains that Milifinia arguably "transcended" to become a part of Hydaelyn. Is this what that creepy punk Elidibus is planning for us?

This is my favorite theory so far. I wonder how they'd go about doing this, but now that we have those RP scenes where we play as other characters, they might be able to make it work.

[Iscah]

What really, really, really worries me is the thought that this chap might actually be "developing" the WoL to become the corporeal vessel for Zordiark. Think about it... Hydaelyn and Zordiark are apparent mirrors of each other, the shadow that accurately reflects the light. Now, remember how Minifilia was able "ascend" to become "one" with Hydaelyn? The specifics are a little more complicated than that but the core matter remains that Milifinia arguably "transcended" to become a part of Hydaelyn. Is this what that creepy punk Elidibus is planning for us?

I'd been thinking that Elidibus himself was perhaps similar to ascended-Minfilia (Ascilia?!) but acting as Zodiark's representative rather than Hydaelyn's.

...However, I have mentioned a while back on these forums, there had to have been something much more as to why those two were called the Raven and the Wolf. Perhaps it's just me but I keep getting the sense that Solus is like Odin

This came to mind when someone in another topic mentioned that Nero's gunhammer is named "Mjölnir", which would make him Thor. I don't know enough about Norse mythology to draw any further parallels but perhaps someone else would like to.

[Anonymoose]

I'd been thinking that Elidibus himself was perhaps similar to ascended-Minfilia (Ascilia?!) but acting as Zodiark's representative rather than Hydaelyn's.

In German, when Minfilia becomes Hydaelyn's emissary, she gives the same speech Elidibus gave with slightly altered words. I'd say that's pretty solid evidence.

[Theodric]

@Berethos:

You don't consider it to be horrific persecution for a race to be driven out of fertile territory and forced to live into a wasteland that results in their numbers remaining dangerously low? The Garleans were considered to be easy pickings specifically due to their inability to wield aether. It was only when they acquired the might of magitek and started fighting back that they managed to secure a better life for themselves and indulge in the fruits that come as a result of becoming an Empire.

I'll bold the relevant parts, with the source being the Garlean entries in the lore book.

Source:

Portrait of a People

To understand the history of Garlemald, one must first understand the character of its people. Known to be strong of body, the most distinguishing Garlean trait is a third eye sitting at the centre of the forehead. This ocular organ resembles a pearl, and grants purebloods superior spatial recognition. Garleans have little inborn ability to manipulate their body's aether, however, and thus the arcane arts have ever eluded all but a few. Thus, they have long been at a disadvantage against other peoples with a command of magic. This imbalance of power has greatly informed the territorial feuds of Ilsabard. In ages past, the Garleans were expelled from the relative warmth of lands to the south of the realm-dividing central mountain range. After crossing the treacherous peaks, they had no choice but to settle in the bleak northern reaches of the continent.

Blue Gold:

Winter's in the Garleans' new home were harsh. The northern seas were bound in ice for most of the year, and the resources of the waters were available for only a slim window. Likewise, farming and rearing animals were possible only at certain times. The land, in other words, could not support a large populace. The Garleans multiplied slowly, and over time were forced to accept being few in number. There was but one benefit to the frigid land - its vast deposits of ceruleum. This deep-blue liquid burned as well as oil, and kept the hearth warm during the long, dark times of year. Indeed, had it not been for this natural resource, the Garleans would not have survived the severe winter cold. Yet, it was to be a long time before the Garleans realised just what a boon this ceruleum was.

---

So, there's the bit about the place being a literal wasteland poorly suited to healthy or enjoyable life. Their numbers were artificially stunted as a result of their persecution and had it not been for ceruleum, they would have faced extinction. I hope everybody reads this, not just because it's a pain to physically type out extracts from the lore book but because there's really no valid argument to claim that the Garleans weren't persecuted in the past. They were literally forced into a situation where they would have died out if not for the presence of ceruleum - which in itself is a finite resource. Or at least something difficult to replenish.

[Iscah]

In ages past, the Garleans were expelled from the relative warmth of lands to the south of the realm-dividing central mountain range. After crossing the treacherous peaks, they had no choice but to settle in the bleak northern reaches of the continent.

In light of the Ivalice plotline, this would be a reference to being driven out of Goug? In any case it doesn't directly say that persecution is why they were driven out of their previous lands, even if you can infer it from the rest of the paragraph.

As to why they left Goug....

From the quest "Annihilation":

Mikoto:
According to the Zodiac Brave Story, the Clockwork City of Goug was a metallic metropolis wherein airships, automata, and other technological marvels of the age were first conceived. Little is said about its location, however, save that it was far away.

Jenomis:
While the Durai Papers do not say a great deal more, they do mention that the land upon which the legendary city was built was severely limited─an inconvenience that forced its inhabitants to build up, rather than out.
Which led me to ask myself: what if the reason land was limited was because the land in question was an island?
But that still would not explain the omission of the cataract. It is inconceivable that the authors would neglect to mention so prominent a landmark had it existed. And then I found it─a lone passage regarding Goug's fall. While the particulars were missing, it appears the city was abandoned after an explosion left half of it in ruin.
I believe that this explosion may have undermined a portion of the seabed. It need only have been a small area at first─one that could well have gone unnoticed during the exodus. As time passed, however, the waters would have continued to wear away at the rock, slowly widening the gap until...
Well, until we have what lies beneath us today. This would explain why there is no mention of Ridorana prior to the present era.

So... a grand mechanical city, abandoned not because of persecution but some kind of disaster - possibly of their own making - that half-destroyed it. And if that wasn't enough to make them leave, the growing chasm would be threatening to consume the rest of it.

[Berethos]

@Berethos:

You don't consider it to be horrific persecution for a race to be driven out of fertile territory and forced to live into a wasteland that results in their numbers remaining dangerously low?

I don't.

The result of aggression against them, yes. A really tough situation to live in, sure. One could even call it being bullied (a form of persecution, but a lesser one, so don't think I'm trying to claim they weren't persecuted in any form) by stronger nations, but being bullied is still a step down from horrific persecution, which is the type you keep bringing up.

Horrific persecution goes beyond those kinds of things - as I said in my previous reply, it is likely to be something that is:

systemic, deliberate, targeted, and most importantly beyond the usual scope of similar actions.

Had those same tribes deliberately gathered prisoners that were specifically Garlean, made them march until they were near death, and then worked them until they were dead in mines and labor camps, and repeated this process, forcing the Garleans to live in fear of the next raid? That is the kind of thing that would qualify as horrific persecution, and those kinds of things are not supported as having happened in the lore we currently have.

Bullied, yes (once bullied, now the bully). Horrifically persecuted? Not so much.

Garlemald is not an stereotype evil empire who wants to conquer all.

If anything, they remind me of if you took the Spartans (hardy people, tough conditions) and combined them with the Romans (the ambition at the top level to conquer, varying degrees of politicking and support below that) and made them the antagonist, and while you're right that they aren't a stereotype of an evil empire (ruthless and ambitious, sure, but even Limsa can be described in that manner at times - the real difference is scope and where they have chosen to stand regarding other nations at the moment), the current official policy from the top is one of expansion with the goal of conquering as much of Hydaelyn as they can, so they kinda do want to conquer all (but, as I've said before, that's more down to the ambition of Solus and so far Varis - with the former dead it's not impossible that the latter could opt for a different course, though I don't think we've seen evidence of that yet).